Jim and all, Touche' !! Bingo !! Right-On !! Etc., etc... I feel like everyone is "draggin" this thing too far. I feel like there should be no -- VS. -- in the description, but Aural--AND--Electronic. Doctors, Mechanics, Engineers, Lawyers, Contractors, even Electronic Technicians, etc., etc., etc. -- YOU name it... In "almost" every practise of all kinds ( now days ), professionals are using "electronic aids." And, WHY NOT ?? It's God's gift of invention to mankind, so lets use it to better our performance(s). I can tell you that here at Michigan State U., Bill Schneider, and myself, tune virtually everything by ear. Yes, we put in our strip mutes and tune every piano by ear. There's nearly 200 pianos here. It only makes the piano sound better. Because each and every piano ever made is as differently as the finger-prints on each and every person ever born on this earth. Each piano must have it's own special care and attention in tuning because they are all inherently different just as we all are as people. That's a given standard. However, all people's needs are special, and completely different. That's why in today's modern world the "electronic age" has helped more people than you'll ever know. I also believe, as you said so yourself, Jim, that the ETD's that we own can and has helped more pianos ( especially ones I've tuned in the past few years of my 20+ years-career ) than I can count. 18 of those years I tuned everything I touched aurally. The "AID" of the ETD only sweetened my results in pianos ( as you mentioned in the spinets ) that I would have problems hearing some of the harmonic beats in the past few years. But, the ETD's can "hear" those frequencies far better than any one of us alive will ever hear. It's what they are suppose to do. That's why they were designed -- to "aid" us into becoming better piano tuners. They are wonderful for pitch raises, and THEN tune a fine tuning aurally. ( Yes, Virginia, it'll have to be tuned twice after the pitch raise IF you want it to be a "stable" tuning...) As others said, I use mind strictly as an "aid" and NOT a crutch. With all the generic tunings on these machines marketed today, not one of them will tune two or more exact models of piano exactly alike. It won't do that. Just like a PC. It can't "think" like a human until you put "human" thinking into it. The same with a piano -- whether a spinet up to a concert 9 foot model. I think we ( piano technicians of today and tomorrow ) should hold VERY strong to the principles and practises of tuning our instrument as it's designed and meant to be tuned -- aurally. Any and all new people (i.e: Associates, apprentices, technician's aids in shops/schools ) trying to learn or being taught basic tuning techniques to become a piano tuner, should NEVER use a ETD as a crutch to start. Here is a case in point. I have a degree, also, in Engineering and C.A.D. Design. CAD (Computer Aided Drafting) is electronics "designed" to help a designer/draftsman to design and draw on the computer engineering plans for constructions in all areas of engineering. In the "good" schools where Drafting is taught FIRST on a drafting board before the student is ever allowed to touch a computer, a draftsmen/designer of this caliper will always be the best person who knows what they are doing on the "drafting board" if ever a need to go to one and work has occasion to arise. I know first hand-experience from this before I ever became a piano technician. It's just like in piano tuning. It's one of those arts and Craftsmanship's that require basic-to-advanced HUMAN skills before one ever touches an electronic device. Air Force Jet Pilots still today train in Cessna's 150s before they are EVER allowed advancement into a Jet Fighter aircraft. Jim Ellis, I'm with you, friend. My co-worker, Bill, will agree with you as well. Right, Bill ?? Right Robert ?? ( wherever you are in Ohio...) Well, back to the "ole grind" and tuning those "daily" studio pianos. Wim, all the faculty want their pianos tuned as often as they can get it. In fact, that's when they are tuned -- as often as we can get to them. Think about it ... PS: There is a way to tune a stable piano very stable. It's like being a magician: The hand has to be quicker than the ear ... We'll talk at K.C. if you go this summer, Wim. I'll show you. My co-worker, Bill, showed me. It's not a secret. I'll just have to show you. Maybe we'll do a class one year at the Nat'l Conv. if asked. Associates REALLY need to learn this. And, maybe those out there tuning who keep wondering, "how do I keep those unions from slipping ?? " Magicians will never tell you their tricks. But, piano technician can't wait to "spill the beans." Dan Tassin,RPT Piano Technician Michigan State Univ. E.Lansing, MI tassin@MSU.edu > ----------------------Original Message--------------------------- > From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of > James Ellis > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:07 AM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: [CAUT] Aural-vs-Electronic > > I think the argument about aural-vs-electronic tuning has been run into > the ground. I think a piano tuner in this day and time should be familiar > with BOTH. Each one has it's own place in the scheme to things, but I still think some aural proficiency should be required for whatever title the > tuner is to be awarded. The tuner can always buy a machine, but he/she > cannot buy aural skills. Those have to be learned. > > In my own work, I sometimes use an ETD as a solution for certain > situations. Most times, I do it aurally because that's the method I > learned 60 years ago and the one with which I am most comfortable. But > if I want to make measurements and see exactly what's going on, the ETD > does that in ways my ears could not possibly do, and I would not be without it. > > I don't have any one set routine that I use in tuning. I have a variety > of them. If the piano is well scaled, any of them will work. If the > scaling is crazy, some will work better than others, but none will work really > well. At my age, I'm not taking any more spinets - only those I have > already been tuning for years. In some cases, I will tune a temperament > from F3 to F4. In others, I may tune from A3 to A4, or even from C4 to > C5 on rare occasions in those spinets with wild inharmonicity. If one > routine isn't going well, I will switch in mid-stream to another. I know I can't make those pianos sound good - only better than they did before - and to my ears, they still sound like "you-know-what". The big will-scaled grands sound fine no matter which routine I use, and I may extend my > temperament tests all the way from A2 to A4. > > Having said all that, my point is that arguing which tuning is better, > aural or electronic, is like arguing which is better, a hammer or a > screwdriver. It depends upon what you are trying to do with it. You > just might need both in your tool kit these days. > > Jim Ellis > > _______________________________________________ > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > _______________________________________________ > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
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