Ed, Thanks for the cammeraderie. As for the circumstances surrounding breakage: It happens during playing, I've replaced a few wires in that same section, and another technician also replaced them at a later date. It seems to start about 2 weeks after installing new wire, intermittent breakage. I didn't see any corrosion, it's a piano from '04. Thanks for your input. Joe On May 16, 2007, at 7:46 AM, caut-request at ptg.org wrote: > Send caut mailing list submissions to > caut at ptg.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > caut-request at ptg.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > caut-owner at ptg.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of caut digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Agraffes and dampers (Ed Sutton) > 2. Re: Agraffes and dampers (Shawn Brock) > 3. Re: Agraffes and dampers (Charles K. Ball) > 4. Re: Agraffes and dampers (A440A at aol.com) > 5. New job (Wimblees at aol.com) > 6. Re: Fiberboard (Ron Nossaman) > 7. Re: Agraffes (Benjamin Treuhaft) > 8. Re: New job (Conrad Hoffsommer) > 9. Re: Agraffes and dampers (reggaepass at aol.com) > > From: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com> > Date: May 15, 2007 8:11:13 PM EDT > To: "College and University Technicians" <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > Reply-To: Ed Sutton <ed440 at mindspring.com>, College and University > Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > Joe- > > 1) Now you know what happens if you bring up your #1 question on CAUT. > > 2) Did someone tap the strings with a screwdriver? Look for dents or > nicks. > Just one gauge of wire? Perhaps the wire was not annealed after > drawing. > Sign of corrosion? Chemical or due to electron flow between two > metals? > When do they break? Tuning? Playing? All at once or intermittantly? > > Ed Sutton > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Wiencek" > <jwpiano at earthlink.net> > To: <caut at ptg.org> > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:55 AM > Subject: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > > >> Hello list, >> This is my first posting to the CAUT list. I have two questions >> 1: How do you keep dampers free from damage when modern music >> requires playing the strings with fingers and the performers paste >> the damper heads with colored stickers, then remove them and tearing >> felt, etc. This is at NYU, but my own experience in music school >> tells me it must be all over. >> >> 2: A Petrof P131 upright with agraffes to the top has broken every >> string from E6-E7. The break is at the edge of the bearing before >> entering the agraffe on the speaking side. Any ideas? >> Thanks, >> >> Joe Wiencek >> jwpiano at earthlink.net >> >> tel: 551 358 4006 > > > > > > From: "Shawn Brock" <shawn_brock at comcast.net> > Date: December 6, 2004 7:00:14 PM EST > To: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com>, "College and University > Technicians" <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > Man, > you are not the first to have a problem with Petrofs being string > breakers. Some of the ones that I have had dealings with would brake > bass strings while not being played! They would come in and just be > out of the crate and.... Pop, ping... Its a shame they could have a > good product but... Sorry I'm no help but I just wanted to let you > know You are not alone. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com> > To: "College and University Technicians" <caut at ptg.org> > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 4:11 PM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > > >> Joe- >> >> 1) Now you know what happens if you bring up your #1 question on CAUT. >> >> 2) Did someone tap the strings with a screwdriver? Look for dents or >> nicks. >> Just one gauge of wire? Perhaps the wire was not annealed after >> drawing. >> Sign of corrosion? Chemical or due to electron flow between two >> metals? >> When do they break? Tuning? Playing? All at once or intermittantly? >> >> Ed Sutton >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Wiencek" >> <jwpiano at earthlink.net> >> To: <caut at ptg.org> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:55 AM >> Subject: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers >> >> >>> Hello list, >>> This is my first posting to the CAUT list. I have two questions >>> 1: How do you keep dampers free from damage when modern music >>> requires playing the strings with fingers and the performers paste >>> the damper heads with colored stickers, then remove them and tearing >>> felt, etc. This is at NYU, but my own experience in music school >>> tells me it must be all over. >>> >>> 2: A Petrof P131 upright with agraffes to the top has broken every >>> string from E6-E7. The break is at the edge of the bearing before >>> entering the agraffe on the speaking side. Any ideas? >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Joe Wiencek >>> jwpiano at earthlink.net >>> >>> tel: 551 358 4006 >>> >> > > > > > > > From: "Charles K. Ball" <ckball at mail.utexas.edu> > Date: May 15, 2007 9:58:29 PM EDT > To: dporritt at smu.edu, College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > Thanks Dave. As LBJ said of his political opponents, it is better to > have them inside the tent, xxxing out, than outside, xxxing in... We > try to emphasize customer service at UT, and it seems to pay off. > > How are my friends Dale Dietiert and Hank Hammett doing at SMU? They > are both wonderful musicians. They were working on their graduate > degrees when we moved to Austin in 1980, and were very kind and > welcoming. > > Best, > Charles > >> Extremely well put! Thank you Charles! dp ____________________David >> M. Porritt, RPTdporritt at smu.eduFrom: caut-bounces at ptg.org >> [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Charles K. Ball >> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:24 PM >> To: College and University Technicians >> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers Dear Colleagues, There is an >> excellent text called The Well-Prepared Piano, by Richard Bunger (The >> Colorado College Music Press, 1973), which offers many helpful >> instructions for performers. Actually, it is the player who often >> needs the most "preparation". After a couple of generations of >> so-called "Extended Techniques", I have concluded that these >> practices are here to stay. At one time I took a prophylactic and >> obstructive approach to this type of music making. It didn't seem to >> help much. I also denigrated this type of music making, which also >> seemed to be counter-productive. The students and faculty simply >> ignored and circumvented the piano technicians. Several years ago I >> decided to take a different approach, and give training and support >> to the students and faculty. I have been invited to speak to our >> composer's forum, and have frequently worked with individual students >> who had to do preparation for their recitals. I would now estimate >> that 80% or 90% of those who need to perform these practices come to >> me first for guidance, and sometimes for mutes and screws and bolts. >> At UT we do not have dedicated instruments for extended techniques, >> and cosmetic or other damages are rare indeed. In general, I would >> have to say that the University Technician will have a happier career >> if they love music, are dedicated to musical education, and cultivate >> a collaborative, rather than an adversarial, relationship with the >> faculty and students. It is not appropriate for us to officially pass >> judgment about the value of different kinds of music making and >> performance. It is our job to support performance and instruction >> and to repair the damage--and to point out any unfortunate >> consequences, preferably in advance. Even traditional performance >> practices take a toll on instruments, and it is very difficult to >> keep institutional instruments in pristine condition at all times. >> It is frustrating when damage does occur, and I have produced more >> than my share of tantrums and angry memos over the past 40 years, but >> we do have to remind ourselves that institutional pianos are somewhat >> like a NY taxicab, compared to a home piano, and have a limited life >> span. Regards,Charles >>> I'm sorry. I must disagree to some point. >>> >>> Performers seem to be of the opinion that the composers of this >>> music are more the authority of piano design than are manufacturers >>> and technicians. >>> >>> Fuddy-duddie or not, there must be some education that much of this >>> stuff is quite damaging to the piano. Some of it doesn't even make >>> sense - like using a wedge mute for single unisons -- even the >>> largest ones just fall through to the soundboard. I don't care how >>> much some of you respect some of the composers or how "cool" some of >>> that music sounds, it is my opinion that those who compose this type >>> of stuff are guilty of negligent vandalism, if there is such a >>> thing. When some music departments require some form of this stuff >>> for composition students to graduate, so that framming on a $100,000 >>> piano with a beer can is all one can come up with to meet the >>> requirement, there are serious problems with this form of >>> composition. >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> On May 15, 2007, at 11:55 AM, reggaepass at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi List, >>>> >>>> David has made a crucial point about how we are perceived within >>>> the environment in which we work, and how that impacts how >>>> respected we are (or are not). Taking an, "Ours not to reason why; >>>> ours but to do or die" attitude (at least publicly), helps keep us >>>> from eroding our own credibility. >>>> >>>> Alan Eder >>>> >>>> P. S. David, thanks for the endorsement of our video. It IS in the >>>> libraries of many schools of music across the land and, apparently, >>>> has helped facilitate the dialogue that must take place between >>>> pianists and technicians about specific pieces and techniques. You >>>> check is in the mail! >>>> >>>> ae >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: dporritt at mail.smu.edu >>>> To: caut at ptg.org >>>> Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 8:36 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers >>>> >>>> Paul: >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Alan Eder's video of how to prepare a piano. It's good, >>>> comprehensive and should be in every university's library. We have >>>> a resident ensemble that only does contemporary music and naturally >>>> they prepare pianos a lot. I've never had any real damage in the 21 >>>> years I've been here. This can be done carefully, without damage >>>> and expands the range of piano music. When we disparage this it >>>> makes us sound like fuddy-duddies who are out of touch with life in >>>> the 21st century. >>>> >>>> >>>> dp >>>> >>>> >>>> David M. Porritt >>>> >>>> dporritt at smu.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> ____________________________________________________________________ >>>> ____ >>>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's >>>> free from AOL at AOL.com. >>>> =0 >>>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Tanner, RPT >>> Piano Technician >>> School of Music >>> University of South Carolina >>> Columbia, SC 29208 >>> (803) 777-4392 >> --Charles Ball, RPT >> Head Piano Technician >> School of Music >> University of Texas at Austin >> 512-471-0763 >> mailto:ckball at mail.utexas.edu > > -- > > > Charles K. Ball, RPT > School of Music > The University of Texas at Austin > Austin, TX 78712 > 512-467-1535 > mailto:ckball at mail.utexas.edu > > From: A440A at aol.com > Date: May 15, 2007 10:03:36 PM EDT > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > > << : A Petrof P131 upright with agraffes to the top has broken every > >> string from E6-E7. The break is at the edge of the bearing before > >> entering the agraffe on the speaking side. Any ideas? >> > > Greetings, > My idea is that there is a combination of heavy play, and less > that > optimum wire. Restring with Mapes Gold and see if that brand is more > durable > than the original. We see a lot of broken strings in the C2 Yamahas, > but > rarely have i seen one of my replacements break. I may be simply > restringing all > these pianos, one note at a time... > Regards, > > > Ed Foote RPT > http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html > www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See what's > free at > http://www.aol.com.</HTML> > > > > > From: Wimblees at aol.com > Date: May 15, 2007 11:13:22 PM EDT > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: [CAUT] New job > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > > Two weeks ago I told you that I was fired from the University of > Alabama. Thanks to all of you who wrote supportive letters, and made > recommendations for new positions. All of your prayers and good wishes > paid off, because less than 48 hours later I got a call from a piano > technician who is looking for someone to help with his business. > > Tonight, it was more or less made official that I would start on > August 1st. But here is the best part, and some of you guys are going > to kill me. It's on the island of Oahu in Hawaii. No, not for the > university, but as an independent piano technician. There is a severe > shortage of experienced, good piano technicians on Oahu, so I will be > kept very busy. I realize the cost of living is twice as expensive as > what I am making here in Alabama, but I will be making almost three > times what I was making here. > > On a personal note, obviously my wife was devastated wit the news of > my dismissal. But after I told her where she was going to live next, > she's the happiest person in the world. Here's a neat little anecdote. > When Jan was a teenager, she vowed that her new husband would take her > to Hawaii for their honeymoon. Well, she married me any way, and as a > poor band director, Hawaii was out of the picture. Next year we'll be > celebrating our 40th wedding anniversary. We're going to renew our > vows, and then go on a 10 year honeymoon to Hawaii. > > If any of you will be at the convention, just look for the guy with > the biggest smile on his face, wearing gaudy Hawaiian shirts. > > Again, thanks for all your thoughts and prayers. They worked. > > Wim > Willem Blees, RPT > Piano Tuner/Technician > Tuscaloosa, AL > (soon to be Hawaii). > > > > See what's free at AOL.com. > From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net> > Date: May 16, 2007 12:58:35 AM EDT > To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Fiberboard > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > >>> Fish paper?? >> Sure. It's that stiff gray stuff used as circuit board insulators, >> and lamp base bottoms. Similar to the red paper only harder. Good >> stuff. > > Thusly - > > http://www.polymerplastics.com/composite_vulcan2.shtml > > Ron N > > > > > From: Benjamin Treuhaft <blt at igc.org> > Date: May 16, 2007 4:10:37 AM EDT > To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > Is Mapes Gold finally a well-made wire that won't break under normal > brutish pianists' hands? -blt (NYU) >> >> From: A440A at aol.com >> Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> >> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:03:36 EDT >> To: caut at ptg.org >> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers >> > >> >> << : A Petrof P131 upright with agraffes to the top has broken >> every >> >> > string from E6-E7. The break is at the edge of the bearing before >> >> > entering the agraffe on the speaking side. Any ideas? >> >> >> Greetings, >> My idea is that there is a combination of heavy play, and less >> that >> optimum wire. Restring with Mapes Gold and see if that brand is >> more durable >> than the original. We see a lot of broken strings in the C2 >> Yamahas, but >> rarely have i seen one of my replacements break. I may be simply >> restringing all >> these pianos, one note at a time... >> Regards, >> >> >> Ed Foote RPT >> http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html >> www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html >> <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See what's >> free at >> http://www.aol.com.</HTML> > > > From: Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco at luther.edu> > Date: May 16, 2007 5:11:09 AM EDT > To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] New job > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > Willem, > > At 22:13 5/15/2007, you wrote: > > SURF'S UP!!! ALOHA!!! > > CONGRATULATIONS!!! - both for the new job and 40 years of honeymoon. > > > Conrad Hoffsommer > > Early to rise: early to bed; > Makes a man healthy, and socially dead. > > > > > > > From: reggaepass at aol.com > Date: May 16, 2007 7:46:28 AM EDT > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > Reply-To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> > > > Charles and List, > > Our video, "Non-Traditional Piano Use" uses the Bunger text Charles > referenced as the point of departure (doubly handy as the book has > long been out of print). > > Charles, you are so right about extended piano techniques being "here > to stay." Here at CalArts, no one can get a degree without "crawling > inside the belly of the beast" (so to speak) at some point. So, it's > not a question of IF it is going to happen but HOW it is going to > happen. That's where we come in. > > And I couldn't agree more about your "constructive engagement" > approach. I, too, have taken it, and have had similarly positive > results, including a surprising degree of faculty and student support > when somebody really does step out of bounds with their piano > (ab)use. > > Regards, > > Alan Eder > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ckball at mail.utexas.edu > To: caut at ptg.org > Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 1:23 PM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Agraffes and dampers > > Dear Colleagues, > > There is an excellent text called The Well-Prepared Piano, by Richard > Bunger (The Colorado College Music Press, 1973), which offers many > helpful instructions for performers. Actually, it is the player who > often needs the most "preparation". > > After a couple of generations of so-called "Extended Techniques", I > have concluded that these practices are here to stay. At one time I > took a prophylactic and obstructive approach to this type of music > making. It didn't seem to help much. I also denigrated this type of > music making, which also seemed to be counter-productive. The > students and faculty simply ignored and circumvented the piano > technicians. Several years ago I decided to take a different > approach, and give training and support to the students and faculty. > I have been invited to speak to our composer's forum, and have > frequently worked with individual students who had to do preparation > for their recitals. I would now estimate that 80% or 90% of those who > need to perform these practices come to me first for guidance, and > sometimes for mutes and screws and bolts. At UT we do not have > dedicated instruments for extended techniq! ues, and cosmetic or other > damages are rare indeed. In general, I would have to say that the > University Technician will have a happier career if they love music, > are dedicated to musical education, and cultivate a collaborative, > rather than an adversarial, relationship with the faculty and > students. > > It is not appropriate for us to officially pass judgment about the > value of different kinds of music making and performance. It is our > job to support performance and instruction and to repair the > damage--and to point out any unfortunate consequences, preferably in > advance. Even traditional performance practices take a toll on > instruments, and it is very difficult to keep institutional > instruments in pristine condition at all times. It is frustrating > when damage does occur, and I have produced more than my share of > tantrums and angry memos over the past 40 years, but we do have to > remind ourselves that institutional pianos are somewhat like a NY > taxicab, compared to a home piano, and have a limited life span. > > Regards, > Charles > >> >> >> Fuddy-duddie or not, there must be some education that much of this >> stuff is quite damaging to the piano. Some of it doesn't even make >> sense - like using a wedge mute for single unisons -- even the >> largest ones just fall through to the soundboard. I don't care how >> much some of you respect some of the composers or how "cool" some of >> that music sounds, it is my opinion that those who compose this type >> of stuff are guilty of negligent vandalism, if there is such a thing. >> When some music departments require some form of this stuff for >> composition students to graduate, so that framming on a $100,000 >> piano with a beer can is all one can come up with to meet the >> requirement, there are serious problems with this form of >> composition. >> >> >> On May 15, 2007, at 11:55 AM, reggaepass at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> Alan Eder >>> >>> ae >>> From: dporritt at mail.smu.eduTo: caut at ptg.org >>> >>> >>> Get Alan Eder's video of how to prepare a piano. It's good, >>> comprehensive and should be in every university's library. We have a >>> resident ensemble that only does contemporary music and naturally >>> they prepare pianos a lot. I've never had any real damage in the 21 >>> years I've been here. This can be done carefully, without damage and >>> expands the range of piano music. When we disparage this it makes us >>> sound like fuddy-duddies who are out of touch with life in the 21st >>> century. >>> >>> dp >>> >>> David M. Porritt >>> dporritt at smu.edu >>> >>> _____________________________________________________________________ >>> ___ >> >> >> >> Jeff Tanner, RPT > > -- > > Charles Ball, RPT > Head Piano Technician > School of Music > University of Texas at Austin > 512-471-0763 > mailto:ckball at mail.utexas.edu > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's > free from AOL at AOL.com. > _______________________________________________ > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives Joe Wiencek jwpiano at earthlink.net tel: 551 358 4006 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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