Greetings,
Nothing personal, since we don't know each other, but inre Jeff's
posting, quoted below, I find myself in total disagreement.
>>The value received from imposing historical tunings in our world today, on
modern instruments, can't
possibly measure up to the value of the effort required to produce it. <<
Et requires more effort than any of the WT's, unless you are using a
machine, in which there is no difference. And to see it as "imposing" as opposed
to offering additional tonal resources, that is a bias that most musicians I
work with do not share.
How are you measuring "value"? The classical musicians I work with are
amazed at how much better their pianos sound when taken out of strict ET. I am
talking about professional pianists here. So are many jazz artists. So are
all the amateur players at home that I tune for. I can't remember the last time
an amateur pianist preferred ET after I gave them a mild Victorian style of
tuning.
>> For historical tunings to be implemented today would require the constant
presence of a professional tuner to attend to a small handful of
instruments. Since we can't possibly know exactly which systems were used
for which composer, or which instrument or how well they were executed, it
seems an exercise in futility today to implement them.<<
That is not the case, in my experience. Since we can't know exactly
what systems were used, we might do best by throwing out the least plausible,
which would be ET. There is overwhelming evidence that it was not in favor
when Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Schubert, etc., were composing. Just because it was
"possible" does not lend credence that it was in use. I also think, that
after centuries of speculation, if ET had suddenly become fact in the 1800s, it
would have caused quite a stir, which we don't see evidence of.
>>...and how anyone ever came to describe "out-of-tuneness" as "color". <<
What exactly is "out of tuneness"? Maybe when half of the thirds are more
consonant than ET? ( the half that accounts for 90% of compositions' home
keys between 1700 and 1885)? The fact that B, C#, F# were virtually never used as
home keys in sonata-allegro form isn't just coincidence, is it?
In fact, if you look at the music of the above composers, you find that
they chose as home keys the keys with the least tempered thirds in a WT in
almost the exact same proportion as the tempering progression in a WT. Beethoven
did prefer Eb above all others, and that could be because it offered the
greatest number of meaningful directions of modulation, for effect.
>>The fact is that older tuning systems did as best as they could to tune one
basic chord. Depending on the system, some other chords would also be
acceptable. Everything else in the system is actually out of tune. <<
Where is the proof of this as "fact"? It sounds like you are
describing Meantone. WT is not a restrictive tuning. And what is the definition of
"out of tune"? Anything more tempered than our modern ET?
>> I suppose "color" is a creative artist's description of what is, if you
think
about it, ignorant incompetence. <<
Color is an artist's description of ignorant incompetence? Jeff, are you
speaking as one that has extensive experience using non-ET tunings with
professional musicians? I have and the results are sufficiently different to keep
me going.
>>ET puts all chords equally out of tune, but not so much as the obscure keys
from the older systems, leaving the instrument more versatile, and more
congruent with everything else around it.<<
I don't think so. There are many places where a 17 cent third
produces a tremendously expressive musical effect. Highly tempered keys can be
used with no apparent harshness, if the composer knew how to use them, and many
of them did!
>> Regardless of what is written, I find it difficult to
believe a composer would actually prefer a tuning system which limited his
abilities to modulate as the progressions naturally led, when he didn't have
to deal with that limitation for other forms of composition.<<
If you are going to disregard what is written, what are you basing your
critique on? Personal taste? A WT does NOT limit one's modulation, it
provides a variety of harmonic textures, which the composers certainly seemed to
take advantage of.
Israel again:
"Speaking of limitations imposed by keyboard compass, I can show places
where Beethoven changed the melody when he ran out of keys -- rather than
write in a different key. So that argument holds no water."
Jeff responds:
"Actually, I think that makes my point, editing the composition being the
alternative to changing the initial beginning key or starting over.
Obviously, the order of notes in his melody was less important than
something else. That doesn't necessarily mean he was insisting on a certain
tuning "effect." We don't know what tuning he was actually hearing, and if
he didn't have a reasonably equal tuning, we don't know how he would have
received an equal tuning that would have allowed him to begin at any point
on the keyboard. <<
I believe you are totally missing the point of key character. Let's hear
from a professional concert pianist with a lifetime of ET behind her who was
introduced to WT and found it to be an epiphany, (Enid Katahn, a Steinway
artist for the last 25 years). Beethoven was known to fly into a rage if someone
transposed his piano compositions into keys other than the ones he wrote them
in. Could it be that he considered the "colors" to have been damaged? I
believe he intentionally used the keys to amplify the emotional impact of his music,
and virtually all classical pianists in my clientele agree.
Several years ago, in discussing Beethoven's op 90, David Love posited:
>>There are some pieces where you could argue that a reverse of that system
would be better; for example, Beethoven's op. 90. The opening in
Em (relative of G major) which is filled with tension might benefit from a
reverse WT.
To which Enid Katahn responds;
"Not true. Just because a key is more dissonant than Cmaj. doesn't
necessarily mean it isn't peaceful. There is a difference between dissonance
as harshness and dissonance as emotionality, or expressiveness." In this
piece, Beethoven was looking for keys with more expression. As he goes
through, there are places where he creates a lot more contrast than he would
have in a more consonant key, such as C major."
Several examples:
bar 9: Beginning in a Gmaj, this passage moves downward, finally passing
through Cmaj before ending on a B triad. So, LVB places the most consonant
chord on the keyboard immediately before one of the most highly tempered. On
a WT, this juxtaposition creates a great harmonic contrast. The
pianist/historian's perspective on this is "This extreme contrast may be
read as LvB's way of letting us know that there is something going on under
the surface and it is not all as peaceful as you might think." (If LVB did
write this piece for his sponsor Baron Lichnowsky and his wife, it could be
making a musical reference to the stormy marriage that they hid below the
verneer of civility in public. Beethoven is known for this sort of
stuff..Call the musicologists!!.)
However, what if Beethoven had written Op. 90 in C?
"If op. 90 had been composed in the "more consonant" key of C, Bar 9 would
have moved from G to C, causing a change in how the passage works,
especially the last two chords. In the original key, the final modulation
from C to B creates a particularly strong musical resolution of this passage,
a resolution suggesting something mysterious. Had the sonata been in C, the
move from F to E would not be as dramatic. Instead, the passage would end
with two chords more similar to one another instead of its original very
"expressive" chord played against a background of maximum consonance."
In view of the above, when David writes "to argue that WT has more color
and therefore is more interesting, musical, dynamic,
multi-dimensional,<snip>is a waste of time," I must disagree for the
following reason, among others:
In WT this modulation changes not only the pitch of the interval, but
also the "color,' whereas in ET, only the pitch changes. Since
more happens when you drop 100 cents while changing from a 7 cent to a 19
cent third than when you simply drop everything 100 cents and the ratios stay
the same, I consider the WT to be more "multidimensional" and dynamic than
ET. The WT modulation is certainly more complex, even in the simplest
physical terms.
I would suggest that harmonic contrast, used in the above example, works
to enhance the expressive intentions of this music. (this is in the opening
bars, where we normally expect to find the musical expectations and hints of
things to come to be laid out). The choice of key determines the degrees of
contrast in the passages and I don't think Beethoven left those to anything
arbitrary.
Example 2: second mvt. going into bar 32,
The original choice for this passage in C#minor, a very colorful,
expressive key in WT.
Enid writes:
" had Beethoven written op 90 in C, this would place this passage in Am,
which defeats the whole purpose. Am is a pleasant, peaceful sound, all the
way through, but this passage is supposed to be full of emotion." Played in
the key of Am on a Young temperament, the passage sounded lifeless to the
several listeners present.
Example 3: The passage beginning at 115.
"Here, Beethoven goes from one extreme of consonance to the other, and does
it in a very refined fashion. Starting in C, he moves through Cm, C#min,
C#, Emaj, E7, then crashing B's resolving to E. In a WT, these modulations
create a steady rise in the amount of tension leading up to the climatic B,
from which, in the final move to E, creates a strong resolution. A
masterful example of using progressively increasing tempering as the passage
develops, arriving at a point of maximum "expression" (B) just before the
final resolution (to E). The emotionality or expression of the piece is
heightened by this coherent, organized increase.
However,
If the sonata were in C, this progression would have begun in Ab!
Hardly a consonant pleasant beginning, and a place from which it will be
difficult to increase tension. That is a very intense key to begin a passage
such as this! Where is there to go??
Had Op.90 been composed in the "more consonant" Key of C, the movement
would travel through:
Ab, Abm , Am, A, C C7 G then ending on C. So, the passage
would have had the softening of the tempering going against the rise of
musical tension plus that odd return to consonance in the middle A to C move.
Also, the climatic, expressive chord would not be the original's heavily
tempered B, but rather, a usually dulcet G. This would be an odd use of
temperament and wouldn't be supportive of the musical direction the passage
exhibits. "
All in all, Enid Katahn feels like Beethoven knew exactly what he was
doing. The "color" effects created in a WT consistently work with the
musical direction of his music. This is to be expected, since, as she
points
out, composers didn't just start with the first note and go through to the
end, but rather, they had distinct musical moments that they would go about
linking together, figuring out how to get from here to there,etc. In
anything but ET, the choice of key is a fundamental component of how the
harmony functions with the musical direction.
There would have been a lot of work to do to rewrite from
the beginning just because the keyboard ran out of keys on one end or the
other. There may have been an effect on the bass end of the keys he was
insisting on that affected what he did in the top end. We don't really know
why he chose not to change keys. But it doesn't necessarily indicate that
any effects produced by in tune or out of tune tonal modes was the reason.
Israel again:
<<"So whenever discussing music in history, we really need to get rid of
our notions based on current practice and expectations..."<<
I agree, however Jeff writes:
>>But we most certainly have to keep current practice and expectations
into
account when doing our work today. Tuning historical temperaments is
interesting novelty for demonstration purposes. <<
I have had numerous pianists tell me that HT's have provided them
with profound insights into the intentions of the composers. Only in a WT does
the coherent rise and fall of dissonance work with the musical direction.
>>For modern practice and application, historical
temperaments are impractical - the chase of a rabbit we know we can never
catch - and it is my opinion that we are wise to spend our short, valuable
time on less trivial pursuits. >>
My experience is totally the opposite, and there is a growing number of
pianists and techs that are finding out about this. Many of the piano and
voice faculty at Vanderbilt prefer a WT to ET. I even keep the stage pianos in a
mild WT as standard, and NOBODY complains. Tomorrow, Emmanuel Ax is going to
give a masterclass here, using two D's that are certainly NOT in ET. I will
let you know what he has to say about it.
Regards,
Ed Foote RPT
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
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