Israel and all,
I just ordered a can of "Hammer Lac" from our good friends at Pianotek. I have not had a chance to really try it out, (almost always voicing down here!) but if anyone out there has experimented with it--please chime in. I am planning on using a 5:1 (diluted with acetone or lacquer thinner) solution to experiment with. Their suggestions for dilution rates are: general use: 4:1, New hammers: 3:1, dead hammers 1:1. Just a thought since is so readily available, affordable, and safer.
Kevin Fortenberry
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up) (Ed Sutton)
2. Re: Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up) (Kidwell, Ted W)
3. Re: Re Retesting (jrpiano)
4. Re: Retesting (Mark Wisner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:09:58 -0400
From: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com>
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up)
Message-ID: <B56C33B3596C43FE9FDCD1695AAAB387 at EdPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
The theater make up department may have some collodion.
It's used in stage make up.
Ed S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Israel Stein
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 1:44 PM
Subject: [CAUT] Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up)
Fred, Ed and all,
Thank you all for your suggestions. Margie and I are working on this piano right now. We needled some sample hammers as per the suggestions below, and we achieved a noticeable tonal improvement - deeper, richer tone in the bass and more "round" tone in the treble along with better projection there. But not much additional "oomph" in the bass. We'll needle the rest of the hammers, see what that accomplishes, and take it from there. I'll keep y'all posted. But it does seem that the bass is going to need some liquid assistance...
Israel Stein
>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:51:06 -0600 Fred Sturm <fssturm at unm.edu> wrote:
> I am going to add a bit to what I posted below about deep needling.
>With bass hammers, it is often a temptation to say they sound okay as
>is, and aren't worth the trouble to do the normal full shoulder
>treatment (standard deep needling in the whole shoulder areas of all
>hammers). In fact, all hammers of all "hard-pressed" hammers need this
>to develop a full tonal range, and also to develop projection. If the
>bass sounds dull, and those hammers haven't seen any needles, do the
>normal 10 - 40 insertions of a 3 needle tool in each shoulder as a
>first step, pretty deep (7-10 mm), standard pattern. Adding lacquer or
>other juices to hard-pressed hammers _should_ be unnecessary except at
>the very top and sometimes very bottom of the range. Hamburg hammers
>are plenty dense, and needles ought to be all that is needed. (With
>the caveat I think David Love mentioned about what you are trying to
>get out of a board that may not have that possibility).
>Fred
>>On Jul 26, 2010, at 10:06 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:
>>> On Jul 26, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Ed Sutton wrote:
>>>
>>> First try needling in the very low shoulders, what Andre Oorebeek
>>> calls "the battery."
>>> Not guaranteed, but I was recently very surprised to find that
>>> sometimes it makes a big difference.
>>> ES
>
>
> I agree, and not just into the lowest shoulders. DEEP needle,
> individual needle, more than 10 mm long, heading from anywhere below
> 3 / 9 o'clock into the area of felt near the molding, angling
> towards the point of the molding (not passing above that point). It
> depends what has been done before, and what kind of hammers they are
> to begin with, but these should be a good candidate. Try 2 - 4
> insertions on each side of the molding, listen. Also feel what is
> happening - how much resistance to the needle, how stiff it feels in
> there. If you are getting more of what you want, and if there is
> plenty of resistance (which I would expect), do more insertions.
> This procedure can give considerably more focus and power. Not
> always, but more often than not.
>
> Regards,
> Fred Sturm
> fssturm at unm.edu
> http://www.createculture.org/profile/FredSturm
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:18:35 -0700
From: "Kidwell, Ted W" <kidwellt at saclink.csus.edu>
To: "caut at ptg.org" <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up)
Message-ID:
<6B7012A246BA25499FD500DEAB31B826010216C3E0 at sl5.saclink.csus.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Israel,
Your predicament reminds me of the Hamburg B I just worked up this month. I hung new Hamburg hammers. I gently filed and polished them as I always do with new hammers. I found, just as you did, that starting around C3 and down the tone was just weak and unfocused. Kind of like NY hammers that need lacquering. It got dramatically worse at the break.
These hammers were kind of round and bulbous. So I did a more agressive hammer shaping to establish a more eggy shape to the hammers. I repolished and liked the results in the tenor but was still not satisfied in the bass. So I did a much more aggressive shaping, taking material mostly off the high shoulders of the bass hammers. The sound absolutely came alive and I then started in with my
needling.
My client is a very sophisticated pianist and singer. He is absolutely thrilled with the sound. The only liquid assistance I supplied was on the top three notes.
So you might try this before you get out the fluids. I hope it works as well for you as it did for me.
Ted
Ted Kidwell, RPT
California State University, Sacramento
Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
6000 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
916.278.6737
________________________________
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Israel Stein [custos3 at comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:44 AM
To: caut at ptg.org<mailto:caut at ptg.org>
Subject: [CAUT] Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up)
Fred, Ed and all,
Thank you all for your suggestions. Margie and I are working on this piano right now. We needled some sample hammers as per the suggestions below, and we achieved a noticeable tonal improvement - deeper, richer tone in the bass and more "round" tone in the treble along with better projection there. But not much additional "oomph" in the bass. We'll needle the rest of the hammers, see what that accomplishes, and take it from there. I'll keep y'all posted. But it does seem that the bass is going to need some liquid assistance...
Israel Stein
>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:51:06 -0600 Fred Sturm <fssturm at unm.edu> wrote:
> I am going to add a bit to what I posted below about deep needling.
>With bass hammers, it is often a temptation to say they sound okay as
>is, and aren't worth the trouble to do the normal full shoulder
>treatment (standard deep needling in the whole shoulder areas of all
>hammers). In fact, all hammers of all "hard-pressed" hammers need this
>to develop a full tonal range, and also to develop projection. If the
>bass sounds dull, and those hammers haven't seen any needles, do the
>normal 10 - 40 insertions of a 3 needle tool in each shoulder as a
>first step, pretty deep (7-10 mm), standard pattern. Adding lacquer or
>other juices to hard-pressed hammers _should_ be unnecessary except at
>the very top and sometimes very bottom of the range. Hamburg hammers
>are plenty dense, and needles ought to be all that is needed. (With
>the caveat I think David Love mentioned about what you are trying to
>get out of a board that may not have that possibility).
>Fred
>>On Jul 26, 2010, at 10:06 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:
>>> On Jul 26, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Ed Sutton wrote:
>>>
>>> First try needling in the very low shoulders, what Andre Oorebeek
>>> calls "the battery."
>>> Not guaranteed, but I was recently very surprised to find that
>>> sometimes it makes a big difference.
>>> ES
>
>
> I agree, and not just into the lowest shoulders. DEEP needle,
> individual needle, more than 10 mm long, heading from anywhere below
> 3 / 9 o'clock into the area of felt near the molding, angling
> towards the point of the molding (not passing above that point). It
> depends what has been done before, and what kind of hammers they are
> to begin with, but these should be a good candidate. Try 2 - 4
> insertions on each side of the molding, listen. Also feel what is
> happening - how much resistance to the needle, how stiff it feels in
> there. If you are getting more of what you want, and if there is
> plenty of resistance (which I would expect), do more insertions.
> This procedure can give considerably more focus and power. Not
> always, but more often than not.
>
> Regards,
> Fred Sturm
> fssturm at unm.edu
> http://www.createculture.org/profile/FredSturm
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:58:14 -0300
From: jrpiano <jrpiano at eastlink.ca>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting
Message-ID: <D8BD1A7ACF434024A187C6CE49307BBA at homef78b3d6>
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed;
reply-type=original
Hi Jim,
Thank you.
I did have a smiley after my comment about leaving, and Israel did make me
realize, I was oversimplifying a very complex problem.
Next term is the 21st year for me at the university, I have a contract with.
Just a small one with 40 pianos, which they just have enough money in the
budget, to tune and do running repairs on.
An RPT designation without work experience, is meaningless.
So to tell a University to higher a tuner with RPT after their name, could
backfire, if they just got a tuner with RPT after their name, and no
experience.
Ok one more thought.
No tests, but how about the book idea, with a record of classes and
conventions attended.
The fact that some teachers attended classes, without any intension of
learning doesn't apply.
I think that conventions probably cost the attendees, at least $1000.
Any tuner spending that much money, is probably there to learn and improve
him/her self.
Having a record of attendance at which classes, should mean something, even
without a test.
So how about a book with different sections, showing the attendance.
Sections could be tuning, voicing, regulation etc.
When they hand in the class critic forms, they get it stamped and
initialled.
The book shouldn't cost too much to produce.
Ok, now back to the lurking area.
Best regards,
John,
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano at win.eastlink.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Busby" <jim_busby at byu.edu>
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting
Hi John,
Don't take offense at Israel's comments, he hates everybody... <G> Just
kidding Israel! But Israel and I have discussed this at length and he knows
exactly what we're talking about and says that someday, if he can find the
time, he'll actually develop a system that would work. There is no one more
capable of it, IMO. For now "talk's cheap" shouldn't offend, because it's
true. Like me, he's been the round with this topic many times and realizes
how difficult it will be to enact such changes.
You have good ideas that are ok to verbalize. Get back on the horse, cowboy.
Warm regards,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of
jrpiano
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:40 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting
Ok, Israel.
I'll quit thinking and making suggestions, about things I know nothing
about.
Obviously an oversimplification of a complex problem
Sorry, back into my hole now. :-)
John Ross
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano at win.eastlink.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "jrpiano" <jrpiano at eastlink.ca>
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting
> It was just a thought.
> Obviously they would not lose the RPT status, but it would indicate a
> willingness to progress.
> The progress card would indicate that. Of course the person could rewrite,
> and eventually pass, but then, they would know that step, be it voicing or
> regulation.
> It was just an idea I was throwing out, for possible further thought.
> I know I have been attending voicing classes at conventions for years, and
> I
> always learn things, even although I might have taken the same course,
> from
> the same instructor before.
> I took Roger Jolly's, and the Andre Oorebeek's course, and finally I am
> beginning to see the light.
> As has been said before, the RPT is just a start in the process, and not
> the
> be all end all.
>
> John Ross
> Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
> jrpiano at win.eastlink.ca
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Busby" <jim_busby at byu.edu>
> To: <caut at ptg.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 8:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> (To all, I'm also thinking about CAUT Curriculum in this thread.)
>
>
> I like your thoughts below, and if we were in a perfect world where nobody
> cheated, nor grew old, nor had a bad day, it would probably work. But when
> you add a pass/fail you add pressure, then the soap operas begin...
>
> What happens when someone fails? Do you offer retakes? If a person fails
> does that person lose RPT status? What is the appeal/grievance system?
> Etc.
> etc. The devil is certainly in the details, and if everyone passed every
> time that would also indicate a bogus system.
>
> If it is just an "attendance required" what if they sleep through it, but
> attend? I saw a tenured High School teacher in a "required certification
> meeting" where attendance was mandatory and he and a friend played chess
> the
> entire two hours, yet he got the required "whatever-it-was" because he was
> there...
>
>
> Frankly, I wonder if all RPTs could pass the tests again. For fun I
> frequently test myself against the SAT, just to keep on my toes. My score
> is
> NOT 100% every time <G> but it is usually pretty good. Some days are
> better
> than others. Once not long ago I got less than the 80%! (FAILED!!!) It
> ticked me off so I immediately retested myself and got in the 90s. But
> isn't
> that like cheating at solitaire? I wonder how I'll do at age 95?
>
> Keep thinking. It keeps us all on our toes.
>
>
> Best,
> Jim Busby
>
>
>
> If not retesting, why not a class at conventions with a test.
> The classes could be more involved than the original tests. Covering
> different areas each year.
> It would increase the attendance at conventions.
> Attendees would be advancing there knowledge. There could be a book that
> would be stamped each time. The book having been issued when the RPT
> status
> was reached.
> This would prove to all, that progress was being made, and the person was
> not stagnating, content with the initial pass.
> John Ross
> Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
> jrpiano at win.eastlink.ca
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:03:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Wisner <mwisner at earthlink.net>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Retesting
Message-ID:
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