Brent, Times have changed. The Sauter Omega has Abel Naturals on it. Sinking a needle to the wooden core is child's play. I've been ordering mine with Euro voicing because the "for American Market" voicing reminds me of a new Steinway in search of a voice. Andrew Anderson On Aug 3, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Brent Fischer wrote: > I just knew I shouldn't have clicked on this.........with one game left > my boys are 16-1-2 , much like my success in the piano business, but > no one should ever expect to win them all, right? As in my life, I stress > competitiveness over winning and that's the attitude that builds champions. > > I could complain all day long about the travesties I've encountered over > a life-time with Steinway but at the start of the day I want my ears to last > to the end of the day. Your crisp and bright pianos are a safety hazard and > every piano from overseas no matter what direction you go, should come with > a warning label for ear protection. Bright, crisp, and transparent tone sounds like > a sales pitch as well and in the states we understand that it's code for " extremely thin". > Clarification: the comment about "foreign," relates to the fact that the Hamburg is > not in the same Euro class of " crisp, bright, and transparent, " instruments. > Never ceases to amaze me that the anti-Steinway, full-professors of knowledge, > still can't explain why the majority of classical artists across the globe insist on > Steinway for their concerto performances. Must be the marketing geniuses they > have employed since the 1890's or they've had a secret Facebook going back to > that time as well. The un-rivaled solidity of tone, with the exception of M&H, > is the same heralded sound that is evident in the smallest of halls and at " PPP ". > > For fifty percent of the " bad Steinways " coming out of NY there is also an > incompetent individual bending the tuning pins and screwing up the front end > of a critical maintenance curve that few no where to start from. > > This time when the next edition of Fine's book comes out I'm gonna drive > over it with my Ford Superduty and shred it like all the vintage American pianos > going to the dump are going to be lost in favor for the next digital gizmo. > I'll post our final record for the season but we won the last game against this > team by the ten-run rule and it would just be bragging, like my dad use to tell > me, " when you win say nothing, when you lose say less ". > > Not so sincerely and for the last time, > > Brent Fischer > > > > > From: erwinspiano <erwinspiano at aol.com> > To: caut at ptg.org > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 11:30 PM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry (William Monroe) > > Hi Israel > Really good post. Quite a journey you,ve been on. Fwiw Hamburg rims or some have been made of maple acquired from the N.Y factory. In 1996 I was on a tour with Michael mohr at the factory and he pointed to stacks of maple being readied to ship to Hamburg. > > Never the less the two factories produce very different instruments. > Dale > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 > > Israel Stein <custos3 at comcast.net> wrote: > Hi, William > > Lest this post be misconstrued, I do > believe - like you - that Steinway still > makes a pretty darn good - occasionally > great - piano, but improvements in > quality control would be very welcome... > And your well thought out remarks remind > me of something I heard Eric Schandall > say on several occasions, back when - > besides being a Steinway C & A > technician in New York - he was running > the Steinway Academy and doing lots of > presentations on behalf of Steinway all > over the country. One of his points was > that it would be a tremendous loss for > the world's musical culture if every > piano sounded like a Steinway. According > to him, it is precisely the variety of > sonorities of different manufacturers' > pianos that enriches the music world, > and he was proud of working for one of > those manufacturers. He would also make > the point that Europe and North America > have very different ideas of constitutes > the ideal piano sound - and trying to > compare the two in terms of which is > "better" is nonsense. In North America > the richer, deeper darker and fuller > sound - like of a good New York Steinway > (at least what it used to be - many > pianists complain that it is hard to > find these days) - prevails, while in > Europe the ideal is a crisper, brighter, > more transparent tone. The Hamburg > Steinway, by the way (according to Eric) > was built to suit the European taste, so > any claim that the Hamburg Steinway is > an "American" piano is based on > ignorance. The Hamburg rims are made > from local woods - hornbeam - and not > rock maple, which only grows in North > America. And the hammers are the much > denser European style hammers. > > And as far as quality and workmanship is > concerned, I can cite numerous instances > of substandard Steinways - both New York > and Hamburg - from my years of prepping > them, first at the Boston dealership, > then at three different stores of the > San Francisco Bay area dealership. Heck, > in my first year at Boston's Steinert > store, we sent back 6 Steinway grands of > various sizes. The president of the > company had me document some of the > problems photographically - at one point > he got really upset and said something > like "what are they doing - trying to > put me out of business?" Some of the > problems I remember were: horrendous > bridgepin positions (really sloppy - no > side bearing in some cases), downbearing > issues, poor choice of soundboard panels > (really poor grain), horrendous action > geometry - this on a Steinway D!!! > Harvard University purchased that D - it > really was a nice sounding piano - but > their technician insisted on extensive > modifications to the action (which we > did in the store shop - and billed > Steinway for the time). > > Right around that time, Boston's > Symphony Hall had for a house Steinway a > Hamburg "D" - which was not able to > project over an orchestra. I remember > Daniel Barenboim in a performance of the > two Brahms concerti trying his best to > pull some more sound out of that dog - > with Seji Ozawa really trying to hush > the orchestra as much as possible - and > the piano was still inaudible! Some > artists refused to play on it - Emmanuel > Ax and Alfred Brendel come to mind - and > brought in a Steinway C & A instrument > instead (we had them at the store) > paying for transport and tuning out of > their own funds. Then, in my 3-4 years > at the San Francisco dealership, I came > across numerous B's with dead trebles > (it seemed to be epidemic about 10 years > ago) and there was a horrendous sounding > "M" that sat at the Walnut Creek store > for three years (no amount of voicing > made much difference) before someone - > probably an interior decorator (it was a > "fancy case" model) - bought it... > > Currently at San Francisco State > University we have a Hamburg D with a > dead bass (some knucklehead department > chair ordered it sight unseen and > untried - after all, it's a Hamburg > Steinway, so anything we get has to be > great - right?) According to the records > left by the previous technician, he > struggled for years trying to get more > sound out of that bass. We (there's two > of us working here) replaced the hammers > on it a few years ago, and even had a > Hamburg factory-trained consultant help > with the voicing. Bass is still dead. So > a performer either has to tone down > everything - or bash away at the bass > trying to make it match a "full > throttle" performance, and listen to it > "blow up on a FFF" (yes, I heard it > myself - so here goes another specious > claim, Steinways do "blow up on a FFF"). > > So as William writes, Steinway does make > a possibly great instrument - but it > often takes an awful lot of work to get > it to its full potential. And way too > often, even with lots of work, the > result leaves a lot to be desired... > And, by the way, Larry Fine does not > make his claims on the basis of his own > observations - he gets feedback from a > large number of skilled technicians all > over the US and Canada, who report to > him their observations. And if all the > people who are having apoplexy over what > Larry was quoted on in the Times re-read > his words carefully, they might see that > he was describing the mindset of > potential piano buyers that is > contributing to the destruction of old > pianos - not making a recommendation. > There is no point hiding your heads in > the sand, folks - that is the reality in > the low end of today's piano > marketplace. Those buyers who would be > happy with a cheap, mediocre acoustic > piano would very often be just as happy > with an electronic. The acoustic piano > business is migrating up-market - where > users can actually appreciate the > difference between acoustic and > electronic. So if you want to stay in > business, do whatever it takes to get > yourself into that sector. And > personally, I wouldn't mind seeing all > those old Wurlitzers and Aeolians and > Kimballs and spinets of every ilk go off > the end of a mover's truck - they are > the everlasting shame of the American > piano industry and, according to many, > in a large part responsible for its demise. > > And as far as our original poster's > judgement of piano quality - well, > besides sounding an awful lot like a > sales pitch, it presumes that "bigger is > better". Not every performance is given > in and Avery Fisher sized hall, and in > many musical contexts what is desirable > is the ability to blend into an ensemble > - not to project. Then again, only a > small minority of pianos sold are meant > for performance - and many of those > meant for performance will be used in > intimate surroundings where the "ability > to project" is not really a > consideration (as it isn't in most home > and studio pianos.) So our original > poster seems to be suffering from a bit > of tunnel vision here... I really hope > that his judgement as a baseball coach > is a lot better than his judgement of > pianos - or his team is in for a very > rough season... > > Well, William, nice reading your clear > and well thought out prose again. We all > missed you in Seattle... > > Israel Stein > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > All due respect, but this comment you've made outlines exactly why Steinway > > is so successful, and other equal (or better) instruments are given the > > nose to the air treatment. You wrote: > > > > "My doubt stems from knowing that > > Steinway rim construction, utilizing rock maple, is the > > standard for instrument projection." > > > > The only people who "know" this to be true are those who "know" Steinway is > > the best, or who "know" anything else in this world. This "knowing" is > > nothing more than prejudicial hyperbole. It makes honest comparison > > impossible. I certainly don't "know" that maple is the best rim material. > > Perhaps I'm a fool. I would also agree that as Mr Anderson states, "personal > > preference should determine your choice here." > > > > If you want your pianos to sound like a NY Steinway, then by all means > > choose one. However, if you have differing tonal ideas, your choice > > doesn't instantly become lesser by virtue of it not being a Steinway. > > Neither does it mean that any of the long held Steinway marketing myths > > are anything more than that. > > > > You wrote, " because there is simply no mistakes made in Steinway joinery, > > including boards and bridges." My experience is different here. I've seen > > plenty of mistakes on S&S boards and bridges (and braces). It's not > > perfect. Don't get me wrong. It doesn't make it awful, it just means it's > > not always "the best." There is room. > > > > You wrote, "Steinway makes the only piano that doesn't blow up on "FFF" and > > selective artists know the difference and the sound. ." And again, I would > > say my experience is very different. I've known many instrument makes > > apart from Steinway whose pianos can go above and beyond Steinway. And > > while it may be true that artists "recognize" a particular tonal spectrum > > associated with Steinway, it doesn't have to mean that palette is the only > > desirable one. Just because it has the name Steinway on it, I don't > > personally feel that makes everything that it is desirable, or even OK in > > some cases. > > > > Take Steinway's notorious duplex segments. Zingers abound. Some at S&S > > will tell you how the artists actually like that. When I was in NY at > > Steinway, there was an interesting discussion involving Ron Connors and the > > current folks in the Selection Room, whereby when the issue came up, the > > pregnant pause spoke volumes about what SOME at S&S felt about that > > particular "desirable" trait. > > > > Again, I would emphasize that I have nothing particularly against S&S. I > > like most of the S&S pianos I see. But, I don't view them as the world > > standard. I view them as one of the available "Tier 1" pianos. If an > > artist truly desires what Steinway produces in tone and touch, then by all > > means that should be the choice. But if the decision to choose Steinway is > > simply because, "well, it's a Steinway," I think that is a great tragedy. > > > > William R. Monroe > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Brent Fischer <brent.fischer at yahoo.com>wrote: > > > >> hey Mr. Anderson, I appreciate your civil discourse. Mr. > >> Erwin must have hit his head prior to his foolish reply. > >> > >> I'm a baseball coach so this has to be my final response > >> for a little while. I'm not discounting the merit of your > >> ability to discern power differences, I would just have to > >> hear it for myself. My doubt stems from knowing that > >> Steinway rim construction, utilizing rock maple, is the > >> standard for instrument projection. If you're saying the Sauter > >> utilizes a rim species of wood that is superior to maple I > >> have difficulty believing it. If Sauter utilizes a keybed > >> that accelerates resonance to the pianist without quartered > >> spruce slats then I have to question how. > >> > >> I was able to find a pic of the lyre you mentioned > >> and although the assembly pieces appear to be of acceptable > >> diameters the comment I made about Julliard has to do with > >> the support system. A steel rod bracing will always flex > >> more due to the torque applied to the outer corners of the > >> lyre box. This is the main reason Steinway braces with birch > >> sticks that are fit into the keybed. Under rigorous demands > >> the flexing becomes an issue and over time only worsens and the > >> pianist feels a sense of disconnection. This is for the very same > >> reason I use carbon fiber soles when cycling, the rigidity of > >> the shoe is critical when standing up on the pedals when engaging > >> twelve percent climbs. > >> > >> Last comment on Fine, why would you imply on a national stage > >> that digitals have the added advantage of not needing to be tuned. > >> As if the trade wasn't suffering enough already, there just went thousands > >> across the world including the technician's business card in their > >> shredding > >> pile for re-cycling. At least we're going green on the way out. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> Brent Fischer > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I went on an extended hunt for the specs on the > >> Omega and turned up little besides equilibrium formulas. > >> Resonance projection starts with a maple rim, it's the code. > >> It's hard to comment without that much, and then I my > >> travels I'm I will search one out. > >> > >> I did see a picture of the lyre. The base looks stout, however > >> all lyres with > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> *From:* Andrew Anderson <andrew at andersonmusic.com> > >> *To:* Brent Fischer <brent.fischer at yahoo.com> > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 1, 2012 8:50 PM > >> > >> *Subject:* Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry > >> > >> Interlined below > >> On Aug 1, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Brent Fischer wrote: > >> > >> yes, I agree if NY would utilize Hamburg plates and a workforce that > >> thought like Hamburg employees the conversation would be over. It's > >> important to quantify "quality construction " because there is simply > >> no mistakes made in Steinway joinery, including boards and bridges. > >> Above all else, Steinway makes the only piano that doesn't blow > >> up on "FFF", and selective artists know the difference and the sound. > >> > >> Here is where I have the opposite experience. Sauter Omegas are more > >> powerful sonically and have a much broader dynamic range than any Steinway > >> I've encountered, and that is the semi-concert grand. Back to back on > >> stage there is no doubt as to which is the more musical piano and that is > >> how we shut Steinway out of institutional purchases. One Omega against one > >> D: put them together and the difference is obvious. Steinways distort at > >> FFF, Sauters get louder. > >> > >> Now people do identify with that distortion and you can get a little from > >> a Sauter, eventually, if you are brutal. If you need to have it easily and > >> can live with a smaller dynamic envelope, you should choose Steinway. > >> Again, personal preference should determine your choice here. If you need > >> to power up a hall though, the sound meter confirms what the ear hears: > >> Sauters do FFF louder by wasting much less sonic energy on distortion. > >> They carry very well. > >> > >> The quality of the best Euro piano made is only designed to function > >> musically up to and never above " FF ". Mason and Hamlin has the > >> tonal substructure to support tenacious pianists however when they > >> designed hardened steel front duplex bars they compromised the treble tone. > >> Quality 101: > >> a. No one but Steinway makes a lyre to withstand the rigors of > >> Julliard > >> > >> Have you seen the Sauter lyre system? > >> > >> > >> b. only Steinway uses quartered-sawn poplar in lid construction, > >> like a carbon-fiber bike frame; light and strong > >> Andrew, the argument has to finish with which piano can withstand > >> the rigors of a changing upswing in the strength of modern pianists, > >> playing > >> to crowds that come to hear " piano Olympics ". Steinway sets the bar at > >> "FFF" and > >> you have the little F's following behind. > >> You wouldn't give Albert Pujols a plastic bat to hit a homer no more > >> than you > >> would give Lang Lang a Bosendorfor to play Lizt. > >> > >> Actually a lot of what Liszt wrote sounds really good on a Bosie. I would > >> tend to reserve a Bosie for music of a more Austrian style, Mozart, Haydn > >> and some Beethovan. There are any number of fine piano makes that are > >> interesting in their own right and some might be preferred for certain > >> types of music. Steinway's aggressive (admirably successful) marketing has > >> positioned it where it is dominant in venues here in North American but > >> that dominance has many factors involved that aren't necessarily about > >> music-making. > >> > >> YMMV, > >> Andrew Anderson > >> > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> Brent Fischer > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> *From:* Andrew Anderson <andrew at andersonmusic.com> > >> *To:* Brent Fischer <brent.fischer at yahoo.com>; caut at ptg.org > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 1, 2012 5:22 PM > >> > >> *Subject:* Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry > >> > >> Mr. Fischer > >> When you are dealing with fine pianos you will find that they are quite > >> individual in their characteristics and the choice of a piano becomes a > >> personal one of preference. Teir-1 piano makers are not copying each other > >> and don't have the same goals when it comes to sound and playing > >> characteristics. > >> > >> If you are comparing quality and consistency of manufacture Steinway NY > >> loses, hands down. If the German can't get past union senority issues in > >> NY, Steinway will completely undermine its iconic reputation--self > >> destruct. I, for one, hope it does get control of its QC issues. It would > >> be a shame to lose another American manufacturer. > >> > >> That said, I don't like any of the Steinways I work with. They are > >> getting better but they are all compromised instruments which will not be > >> stellar until re-bellied they way they should be. Quality control was > >> definitely out to lunch on these Ds an Bs. > >> > >> In my store I carry a teir-one German brand and these pianos are obviously > >> better then any NY Steinway I work on. Every performing artist I've had > >> over has fallen in-love with them, some of them under contractual > >> obligation to demand another instrument at performance venues. > >> > >> Unless the only Steinways you encouter are C&A stock, you have missed out > >> on a lot of other fine brands. > >> > >> As to Chinese made pianos, the strides being made there are rapid, much > >> more rapid than the progress that was made by Japanese piano makers. There > >> is a least one brand coming out of China today that is very serious > >> competition for the Japanese makes at their better levels. > >> > >> The world does not stand still. Things do change over time. Keeping > >> track of that is an invaluable service. I do disagree with Fine on > >> occasion but as yet he has no credible competition for the service he > >> provides and I do recommend his service to everyone who asks. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> Andrew Anderson > >> > >> On Aug 1, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Brent Fischer wrote: > >> > >> Mr. Bousel, > >> With all due respect Aaron I don't consider my opinion a minority one. > >> Secondly, who made Mr. Fine's instrument acumen the " last word " or > >> his analysis the " bible " of the industry. As the last of the greatest > >> American made pianos fade into the sunset there will be even the > >> occasional Mason and Hamlin growing daises in your local dump. The > >> comparison that Fine makes with the Chinese industry would leave the > >> laymen believing that they are just as well made as the original specs > >> of pianos that were light years ahead of anything made in China. > >> > >> It all starts with the carcass, just have to compare and contrast with > >> specs that have been historically superior. There has never been a > >> foreign > >> made piano anywhere that could hold it's own on stage with a Baldwin or > >> Mason much less a Steinway. I don't categorize the Hamburg as foreign. > >> > >> Final comment: The last time I drove over Fine's book with my truck > >> was when he made his biblical judgement that European instruments > >> are as good as our currently US made Steinways. > >> Like I said, he's not our spokesman. > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> *From:* Aaron Bousel <abousel at comcast.net> > >> *To:* caut at ptg.org > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 1, 2012 3:24 PM > >> *Subject:* Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry > >> > >> Here's a link to the whole article, including a video. > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/arts/music/for-more-pianos-last-note-is-thud-in-the-dump.html?pagewanted=all > >> > >> First: Larry is hardly responsible for the juxtaposition of his comment > >> and the photo of an old Knabe grand. > >> Second: You don't know the context of his remarks, that is, what question > >> was asked by the reporter that elicited the quote that was used. In the > >> context of 80 to 100+ year old verticals it certainly fits and his comment > >> doesn't endorse the purchase of a digital piano, it just states the reality > >> of the marketplace. > >> Third: You've "always said" that Larry Fine doesn't know what he's talking > >> about? OK, you're entitled to your opinion (albeit a minority one within > >> the industry), but don't base it on one out of context quote from a > >> newspaper article. > >> > >> Aaron > >> > >> At 07:25 AM 8/1/2012, you wrote: > >> > >> NY Times 7-30-12.....Music Article > >> > >> On the front page of the digital NY Times " For More Pianos, Last Note > >> is the Thud in the Dump" > >> > >> " Instead of spending hundreds or thousands to repair an old piano, you > >> can buy a new one made in China that's just as good, or you can buy a > >> digital > >> one that doesn't need need tuning and has all kinds of bells and > >> whistles," said > >> Larry Fine, the editor and publisher of Acoustic & Digital Buyer " the > >> industry bible. > >> > >> The picture seen around the world is of a vintage Knabe grand being > >> trashed. > >> Confirms what I've always said, he doesn't know what he is talking about. > >> > >> Brent Fischer > >> 30 yr. member of the PTG / Registered Craftsman / retired > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------ > >> Aaron Bousel > >> Registered Piano Technician, Piano Technicians Guild > >> info at bouselpiano.com > >> (413) 253-3846 (voice & fax) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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