Temperaments

[pianoman]

James Grebe
R.P.T. of the P.T.G. from St. Louis
pianoman@inlink.com
"Success is not a goal, rather it is a way of life".

----------
> From: Eugenia Carter <ginacarter@msn.com>
> To: pianotech@ptg.org
> Subject: Re: Temperaments
> Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:31 AM
> 
> Bill,
> 
> First I do listen to "What d'ya know" and like it very much. (It comes on
> here right after Car Talk, another of my favorite programs.) However, I
> almost always switch stations when the music begins to play 'cause the
> out-of-tune piano drives me nuts! Not necessarily the tuning, but the
wild
> unisions. Can't get past them to even listen to the tuning itself, much
less
> the music.  So, if you are the tuner or you know who the tuner is, sure
> would be nice if you would pass that on. (Or is what drives me nuts the
> tuning itself and not wild unisions?)
> 
> >There are no statutes on the book here in Madison that state what a
> "normal"
> >piano tuning is.  I doubt if there are anywhere else either.  The HT's
have
> >been practiced here long enough that they are known and talked about and
> >sometimes specifically requested.  It is also well known in my community
> that
> >I do NOT tune ET.  Therefore, there are some customers who do NOT call
me
> >because of that.
> 
> Bill, you might just want to study a little about common law. In American
> society a lot of things are _not_ written as statutes simply because
common
> law takes precedence. Therefore, your statement that "no statues on the
book
> here in Madison that state what a 'normal' tuning is." is not a valid,
legal
> premise. Those customers who do not call you are not the issue; the issue
is
> those who _do_ call you who do _not_ know that you do not tune ET.
> 
> >When the customer wants to talk and have things explained, I am glad to
do
> so.>
> 
> If you are so strongly convinced that anything but ET is better, then why
do
> you not take the opportunity to convince those uneducated customers that
> your way is better?
> 
> >Otherwise, given the very hostile climate that the ET="normal" crowd has
> >created>>
> 
> Bill, the only person I have seen demonstrate a "hostile" attitude in
this
> entire list discussion is you.  And I resent your implication that those
of
> us who do offer ET have created such hostility. I have seen more openness
on
> this list regarding the various temperaments that I would have ever
> expected.
> 
> >I prefer to combine two popular slogans as my motto whether it is in
> >regard to tuning, voicing, regulation or any other service I might
provide:
> >
> >"Don't ask, don't tell, just do it."
> 
> Your preferences are your business; just don't ask me to condone them
either
> openly or tacitly by not replying. IMO "don't ask, don't tell, just do
it"
> verges on the border of possibly illegal behavior but definitely
unethical.
> 
> 
> -Gina Carter, Charlotte NC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Billbrpt <Billbrpt@aol.com>
> To: pianotech@ptg.org <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Temperaments
> 
> 
> >In a message dated 98-01-26 07:32:08 EST, Micheal Jorgensen writes:
> >
> ><<...though I certainly respect ET and think it is remarkable
> > how close tuners actually come to it in practice.  >>
> >
> >In a message dated 98-01-25 16:18:10 EST, Jim Bryant writes:
> >
> ><< b.  If the 'contract', as agreed to did not specify a temperament to
use
> >and you used a temperament that was not the 'norm' of the community then
> the
> >contract would not have been fulfilled faithfully.  Even if the customer
> >absolutely loved your temperament you would not have lived up to the
> >expectations of the 'norm' and the contract was not fulfilled
faithfully.
> In
> >this situation the customer loved your tuning and accepted it as
presented
> >even though it was not in accordance with the contract.
> >    c.  If the 'contract', as agreed to, did not specify a temperament
to
> use
> >and you used a temperament that was not the 'norm' of the community then
> the
> >contract would not have been fulfilled faithfully. If in this instance
the
> >customer hated or was at least unhappy with the temperament, and 
desired
> you
> >to either put a "normal" tuning on it or to leave the premisies, what
then
> do
> >you say? "well mam you just don't appreciate the advantages of this
> >'historical temperament" and expect to be paid?  In this instance you
have
> no
> >right to expect to be paid as you did not live up to the "implicit
> contract".
> >   You can turn and twist this all you like but the act of putting on a
non
> >"normal" tuning on a piano without the advice, consent, and knowledge of
> your
> >customer is unethical and is not tempered by how well or poorly any
tuning
> was
> >done.
> >   When it comes to "historical temperaments" Bill your quest should be
to
> >'educate' not 'dictate'.>>
> >
> >There are no statutes on the book here in Madison that state what a
> "normal"
> >piano tuning is.  I doubt if there are anywhere else either.  The HT's
have
> >been practiced here long enough that they are known and talked about and
> >sometimes specifically requested.  It is also well known in my community
> that
> >I do NOT tune ET.  Therefore, there are some customers who do NOT call
me
> >because of that.
> >
> >I still have 25-30 piano tunings/sevices to do a week so I can afford to
be
> >exclusive about what kind of work I will accept.  I am not the only
> technician
> >here who tunes exclusively HT's.
> >
> >In a message dated 98-01-25 20:18:31 EST, Ralph Martin writes:
> >
> ><< If what you say is true (that ET is "dying out") then we are going to
be
> > forced back into writing and performing music with very simple chord
> > structures. I simply can't see that happening
> >  >>
> ><< I offer an historical tuning to every teacher of classical music
> > that I service. Thus far they all seem aware of the other tunings but
> > refuse them in favour of ET anyway.
> >  >>
> >With all due respect to Ralph, all kinds of music from classical to
> >contemporary can and are played on HT's here in Madison.  If you tune
into
> >Public Radio International (the AM band counterpart of National Public
> Radio)
> >on Saturday mornings from 10 am to 12 pm CST, you can hear a live
broadcast
> >from Madison in which the piano is tuned in an HT.  The show is called
> "What
> >d'ya know?".  Yes, the pianist is aware of the kind of tuning it is and
> >prefers it.  HT's on this program have been in use for many years and so
> might
> >be considered the "norm".   The music played is contempoary jazz and the
> fact
> >that this music has much complex harmony involving virtually all
possible
> >tonalities demonstrates that ET is not required (and in my opinion, not
> >desirable) when playing this or virtually any other kind of music.
> >
> >Again, with all due respect to Ralph, I wonder how the two choices that
he
> >offers are being presented?  "Normal" vs. "abnormal".  "Modern vs.
> archaic?".
> >"Mean" tones vs. "nice, smooth ones"?
> >
> >I could say for example, "I'll give you a choice in how you'd like your
> piano
> >tuned:
> >
> >Option A:   A nice, well-tempered tuning.  It is the way all of the
> European
> >composers tuned from the time of Bach through the Victorian era.  Each
key
> you
> >play in will have a distinct character.  At the top of the cycle of
5ths,
> you
> >will hear smooth, gentle, quiet harmony.  In the remote keys, you'll
hear
> >beautiful vibrant, singing tones, enhanced leading tones.  When you play
> >modern music such as jazz, you'll hear crisp clear harmonies.
> >
> >Option B:  A method forced upon the general population in the early 20th
> >Century by people who weren't even musicians.  There were people who
were
> >trying to define music "scientifically" who prescribed a certain
irrational
> >frequency for each note of the scale.  Later, a machine called the
"Strobe
> >Tuner" was invented to help tuners get these frequencies exactly because
it
> >was so difficult for them to do by ear.  It became common for tuners to
buy
> >these "Strobe Tuners" because tuning in this new "scientific" way was
> thought
> >to be somehow better than the natural way that the ear hears so easily. 
If
> I
> >tune your piano this way, none of the harmony you hear from your
> traditional
> >and classical music will sound the way the composer intended.  Every
chord
> you
> >play will be slightly "sour" and unfocused sounding.  There will be no
> >distinction between any of the keys.  They will all have that same,
> >undesirable sound.  There won't be any reason to modulate from one key
to
> the
> >next because they have all been homogenized into one slightly "sour" but
> >supposedly "scientific" arrangement.  The smooth, quiet harmony you
expect
> to
> >hear in the top of the cycle of 5ths will have a "busy", nervous sound
to
> it,
> >quite inappropriate, I'd say.  That beautiful "singing" tone you want to
> hear
> >when you play Chopin will be flattened and dulled over.  Your leading
tones
> >won't lead so well either.
> >
> >So which would you prefer, Ma'am, option A or B?  Bye the way, have you
> ever
> >heard a piano that someone tuned with a Strobe Tuner?"
> >
> >I find Micheal's observation very interesting.  He finds it remarkable
how
> >close some technicians come to what is being purported as "normal".  On
a
> >daily basis, it seems  inponderable how many technicians there might be
who
> >are not fulfilling contracts by Jim's standards.
> >
> >Of course, I don't offer "Option A or B" to my customers.  I do talk
about
> the
> >nature of tuning and temperament with them when I feel it is appropriate
to
> do
> >so.  This idea that somehow ET has become "normal" has caused most
> >practitioners of HT's to be wary of how much information it is prudent
to
> >disclose when it has not been solicited.  Although I am known as an HT
> >practitioner, I am better known as a technician who makes pianos sound
and
> >play very well.  What the customers recognize is how good the music
sounds,
> >how well and long the piano stays in tune and how well it responds
because
> of
> >my attention to other aspects of preparation other than tuning.  In my
> view,
> >the difference I make with an HT is a proportinately very small part of
the
> >overall distinction I make for my self by offering a complete,  thorough
> and
> >competent piano service.
> >
> >When the customer wants to talk and have things explained, I am glad to
do
> so.
> >Otherwise, given the very hostile climate that the ET="normal" crowd has
> >created, I prefer to combine two popular slogans as my motto whether it
is
> in
> >regard to tuning, voicing, regulation or any other service I might
provide:
> >
> >"Don't ask, don't tell, just do it."
> >
> >Bill Bremmer RPT
> >Madison, Wisconsin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
>