In a message dated 7/2/98 11:12:55 AM Central Daylight Time, pianotoo@IMAP2.ASU.EDU writes: << My friend Bill: I'm sorry to have to break this news to you, but for once in your exciting life you are wrong. In your note below you mention that pure 5ths tuning is a departure from ET. ABsolutely wrong. It is the only equal temperament which also includes tempering the octaves.>> Thanks for your note, Jim, I am looking forward to your class. I want to talk to you about doing a full day in Madison or Milwaukee next year. Far be it from me to want to prove the notion that some have that I am a person who thinks he is always right, here is what I said, > It is no secret that the Steinway Hall tuners have long used the so-called "ET > with pure 5ths" variation from true ET. There is only so far you can go with > any modifications to ET before it stops being ET. In this arrangement, the > intervals within the octave are all equal but the octave itself is tempered. > It cannot be considered a true ET because of this. It might be called "Quasi > Pythagorean ET". I have to admit that Owen Jorgensen told me that it could still be considered ET and in a way, I concede that in what I said, "...the intervals within the octave are all equal..." but it is difficult for me to accept that ET can be anything but *one* thing and *one* thing only, otherwise it would not be ET. We start getting into the "more equal" arguments. I used the words "variation" and "modification", not "departure". The latter might apply to the Quasi-ET's. When I used the word "Quasi", I used it as a modifier to the word "Pythagorean". << You do not get pythagorean 3rds.>> I am well aware of this and it is not what I implied. A so-called "Pythagorean 3rd" is one which is wide by a full syntonic comma (21.5¢) or more. In the ET/pure 5ths, I think they are all about 15¢ wide, more or less. << All intervals progress evenly in beat speed as you ascend the scale. Pure 5ths tuning on a modern piano has nothing to do with HT. It is merely an approach to dealing with inharmonicity of which the ancients had no or little knowledge.>> This, I have no argument with. I used to tune this way 15 years ago. I had read Lucas Mason's book, The New Tuning (by the way, he graduated from the University of Wisconsin, Madison), and thought that it supported what I had been inclined to do anyway. I talked to Bill Garlick at Steinway about this idea in 1986. He confirmed my hypothesis that one could use the Inharmonicity of a piano to one's advantage in making the octave as large as might be tolerable to the ear in order to make the 5ths be less tempered. He confirmed the idea but admonished me that, in his words, "would produce a very bright sound". I responded that such a sound was my goal. He replied that there might well be circumstances where a more contracted sound might be preferred. I will always remember that. It was the beginning of the end of the idea that I had that there was only one very best way to tune a piano. To accept the premis that there might be any number of different styles and variations that one might use in any given circumstance became my new field of exploration. I first experimented with the width of the temperament octave in ET, then with the rest of the octaves. I came up with a bone-head simple way of tuning the 5th, 6th& 7th octaves with what I consider to be *optimum* stretch. When you heard those octaves, you were interested and to that I am deeply flattered. But to me, it is so natural and so simple, anyone can learn to do it aurally, as I did for many years or with the SAT and get the same results. I will be using this approach with the Walter Grand in Providence. << As you well know (and do an excellent job of tempering your octaves when using your favorite HT version), one of the beauties of your concert tuning was that your upper octaves sounded so good with the rest of the piano. The only way they can sound that good is through a careful stretching of the octaves immediately below in order to accomodate the greater stretch which is required in the top octave in order to blend with the mid section of the piano.>> Thank you so much but as I said, it is very simple and completely natural. I was to the point as an aural tuner that I could consistently do the same kind of beautiful octaves no matter what my physical or mental condition might be. Even if I was tired or feeling ill but still needing and wanting to work, I could stil tune these kinds of octaves consistently, effortlessly, even, I would say, mindlessly. Any skilled tuner can use the same technique and get just as good of results. <<You have told me yourself that that is the area where you can stretch out the wolf 5ths.>> In Meantone temperaments, such as the 1/7 comma Meantone, the "wolf 5th" is actually wide so it does not need stretching. What you can do however is tune the sharp note of that interval in 2:1 octaves to the top and the flat note, stretch as much as can be justified. You reverse this pattern below the temperament octave. This tends to close the widened 5th in the outer octaves, leaving the only dissonance in the temperament octave itself. My tempered octaves method serves to "pull the tempering out" of the rest of the tempered 5ths of the 1/7 comma Meantone while retaining the basic balance of harmony which is the goal of the temperament. The more Inharmonicity there is, the more that the tempering of an octave can be used to absorb the Comma. That is why I really like tuning a Steinway or other high Inharmonicity scale, especially in 1/7 comma Meantone. To me, the more Inharmonicity there is, the "sweeter" (as they have called it here on the List recently) I can make the tuning sound. The Walter Grand I will tune is of moderate Inharmonicity but I will make that work quite well with my Equal-Beating Victorian Temperament. The Walter console, one of which I own, has a relatively high Inharmonicity scale. I can really make it *sing*! << Take courage my dear brother, I've been wrong more than once (even on this list). It is not the end of the world for you. You are still valuable. I'm looking forward to hearing your work in Providence. Incidentally. I will be doing a pure 5ths tuning in the last half of my class on Advanced Tuning. Hope to see you there also. Jim Coleman, Sr. >> No need to bolster my ego, Jim, I've already become hardened to the ways of this List. I use your "sticky note" solution. Anybody who wants information or to discuss HT's with me will get an appropriate response. Anybody who wants to tell me that what I am doing is wrong will be wasting time and energy. My sincerest regards, Bill Bremmer RPT Madison, WIsconsin
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