I recently took on a restoration job for a Chickering grand (1883). I will begin in about 8-10 weeks. Everything looks like it will be straight forward except for the soundboard. The piano came from it's home in Colorado to me in Louisiana (it's now adjusted to our humid climate and now I think it's a couple of inches longer). At some point in it's past the bass bridge was reglued/screwed. I am assuming that at this time the technician decided that it was necessary to remove the last two ribs (near the tail) from the soundboard. There is crown in the middle of the soundboard but there is some warpage and inconsistency. My question is: Is it mandatory that I replace those ribs, and how do I do it? They are about 10" and 16"long (?). Can I just shape the ribs for some crown and glue them in with soundboard repair jigs? How do I get them into the rim? The customer is not terribly interested in antique value, just playability/sound. It sounds surprisingly good now, despite the "Adam's rib" extraction. THANKS!! Lance Lafargue, RPT New Orleans Chapter Covington, LA. lafargue@iamerica.net ---------- > From: pianotech-digest <owner-pianotech-digest@ptg.org> > To: pianotech-digest@ptg.org > Subject: pianotech-digest V1997 #670 > Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 8:32 AM > > > pianotech-digest Tuesday, March 17 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 670 > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:37:12 -0800 > From: Delwin D Fandrich <pianobuilders@olynet.com> > Subject: Re: Curious Design > > THEOFONE wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/16/98 9:30:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > diskladame@provide.net writes: > > > > << > > Through the years, I had been taught that a mark of a cheaper piano was > > that the ribs do not go into a notched liner. >> > > > > Didnt we say the same thing about verticals with no back posts??? Then we discovered the > > full perimiter plate!!!! > > My experience tell me that when designers break an obvious rule, There are > > usually 10 GOOD reasons why they should. > > > > Theodore Mamel RPT > > Pittsburgh Chapter > > > > Yes, well. You know my motto: > > Conventional Wisdom is an Idiot! > > Del > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:40:36 EST > From: THEOFONE <THEOFONE@aol.com> > Subject: Re: FULL MOON and FRIDAY the 13th > > In a message dated 3/16/98 7:53:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpage@capecod.net > writes: > > << > Did I miss something? > > > Jon Page >> > > > Yes You Did!!!!! > > Theo > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:23:06 -0800 > From: Tom Cole <tcole@cruzio.com> > Subject: Re: HT's (Ad Nauseum) > > RptBob1 wrote: > > > > > > With all due respect to the Technicians who have spent numerous hours > > ruminating on the subject of ET vs HT and all the mathematical utterances, are > > there really that many of you out there that give a real darn? I mean:how > > many of you really have customers who would know the difference and would > > really care? > > > > Thank goodness we have a delete button and don't have to read all of these. > > > > How many of you really can hear the difference - and really care - or am I > > further stirring up a hornet's nest? > > > > There are approximately 3000 members of the PTG. We have been > > hearing(reading) from about 6 or 8 of you on this subject. > > > > Comments from the great unwashed? > > > > Bob Bergantino,RPT > > South Euclid, Ohio > > Bob, > > You may have eliminated the bulk of the "unwashed" by your subject > title. But thanks for letting us know that you are tired of this > discussion. Seriously. I can understand how pained you might be to hear > that the tuning work that you have been doing all these years is > fundamentally wrong, according to Bill Bremmer, and that you'd better > start learning how and when to tune historical temperaments. > > I could easily be one of those who tuned this subject out, having done > so for many years, if I thought that there was nothing to be gained by > its study. This is a serious challenge to modern technicians and I have > the faith, foolishly perhaps, that we can get through this issue to some > kind of resolution of our differences. An agreement to differ is a > possibility, though. > > So I vote for continuing the thread with the proviso that we brush the > chips off our shoulders and come to our computers with open minds. The > only way I seem to be able to open my mind on this subject is to put > historical temperaments on my pianos and play on them. Otherwise, I'm > just talking off the top of my head. > > Today, I tuned my Steinway in a Vlotti-Young (it was handy but I need to > figure out how to input temperaments suggested by Bill and Paul) and so > far I haven't vomited. My RCT graph looked like the San Andreas Fault is > up to no good. (Fortunately, the weather report didn't say anything > about California falling into the sea today.) I'm trying to ignore my > usual cues that this piano was not tuned right. Also, I haven't been > banging on the noisy intervals - the tuning seems to demand that - and > I've been increasing the contrast between melody and accompaniment even > more than usual. I can't imagine a Bach chorale style of music in some > of the darker keys. > > At the moment, my wife is playing Schumann (Blumenstuck op 19 in Ab > major). It sounds offal, I mean awful. All of the tones having equal > value seems to put the temperament in a bad light. The key of Ab in > Vlotti-Young requires some major finessing by the pianist. I'm going to > switch to a milder tuning very soon. > > More on this after tomorrow's chapter meeting. > > Tom > > - -- > Thomas A. Cole, RPT > Santa Cruz, CA > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:52:37 -0600 > From: "Richard Moody" <remoody@easnet.net> > Subject: Re: "Victorian" W.T. or Modified Meantone > > - ---------- > > From: Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu> > > To: pianotech@ptg.org > > Subject: Re: "Victorian" W.T. or Modified Meantone > > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 7:46 AM > > > > Paul and others, > > > > At 06:56 3/16/98 -0500, you wrote: > > > > As a resident troglodite (i.e. strictly aural tuner) of this list, > I have a > > small question to ask. > > > > I look at this recipe for setting a tuning device and wrinkle my > brow a little. > > > > > Cents Dev. from ET > > > > > >c 4.4 > > >b -2.3 > > >a# 1.3 > > >a -1.2 > > >g# 0.3 > > >g 1.7 > > >f# -2.7 > > >f 3.1 > > >e -0.5 > > >Eb 1.4 > > >d -0.3 > > >c# -0.4 > > > > At no point does it coincide with ET, nor does it coincide with any > known > > tuning standard such as A440Hz/A435Hz/C523.25Hz/C517.3Hz, etc. > > If I tune an HT from a fork or ETD generated A or C using aural > directions > > which produce the same temperament as above, it'll be different, > right? > > > > When in doubt unless otherwise requested, ET is usually generated > from A440. Now if A is to be -1.2 cents flat, that would come out to > 439.7. Tuning from here according to the beats given should give the > temperament providing the calculations are correct, and they are > according to my spread sheet. I _guess_ if you wanted 439.7 you > could hold an a440 fork in our hand for 5.79 seconds. > > Now why a temp is wanted with the middle C--G fifth beating at -2.1 > (giving the fourth above, G--C5 at 4.2) I dunno. > Back to the cave?? With an eagle eye like that you should be perched > on a lofty craig above the great abyss. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:08:03 -0600 > From: "Richard Moody" <remoody@easnet.net> > Subject: Re: HT's...a challenge > > - ---------- > > From: Billbrpt <Billbrpt@aol.com> > > To: pianotech@ptg.org > > Subject: Re: HT's...a challenge > > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 3:35 AM > > > > Invite me to one of your recording sites, > > There are none at the present. Sorry (I really do miss it) :..(.. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:36:48 -0600 > From: "Richard Moody" <remoody@easnet.net> > Subject: Re: FULL MOON and FRIDAY the 13th > > - ---------- > > From: Jon Page <jpage@capecod.net> > > To: pianotech@ptg.org > > Subject: Re: FULL MOON and FRIDAY the 13th > > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 6:30 AM > > > > At 09:22 PM 3/15/98 EST, you wrote: > > >BUT as you all see, we have made it through the weekend WITHOUT a > major war, > > >at time when I would think this is a bad luck time. I WAS > WRONG!!!! > > > Theodore > Mamel RPT > > > > Pittsburgh Chapter > > > > Did I miss something? > > > > > > Jon Page > > > Unless you didn't realize this was the second month in a row with > Friday the 13th. > The things you learn doing home tunings....... > But I didn't learn when the last one was or when the next one will > be...But I think there was an eclipse somewhere.... > > Richard E Moody (the 13th) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:53:24 -0600 > From: "Richard Moody" <remoody@easnet.net> > Subject: Re: HT's > > > > ---------- > > > > From: Michael Jorgensen <Michael.Jorgensen@cmich.edu> > > > > To: pianotech@ptg.org > > > > Subject: Re: HT's > > > > Date: Friday, March 13, 1998 1:30 AM > > > > > > > >. Virtually all classical > > > > period works were written in keys of four sharps or four flats > or > > > less. > > > > (I'm sure someone will probably find an exception, please let > me > > > know > > > > what work it is). > > > > > > "Rain Drop Prelude" Chopin, Db maj. #15 . > > > This should be one of the basic playing requirement for > those who > > > want to be piano technicians. (Because I can barely play it) > > > > > > What HT would someone recommended for this? > > > > > Actually there are many dozens of serene works in the romantic > period > > written for keys with many sharps or flats. > > -Mike Jorgensen > > Serene is a good word for the "Raindrop." I forgot what the words > are called that appear at the beginning of a piece like "Allegro" or > "Lento", but "Sostenuto" appears at the beginning of the Db maj. #15 > Prelude. I don't think it is refering to the pedal. Interesting to > note the next Prelude is marked Presto con Fuocco. It has the same > number of flats (5) but in the "relative minor" (Bb min), "the > darling of the virtuoso." (Quotes from Schrimer's edition.) There > also has to be a relation of key signature and velocity, as someone > has already suggested on this list. > > While much has been made of Well Tempered Clavier being written in > the 24 keys, (48 all together) the 24 Chopin Preludes are also > presented starting in C then C min, then through the circle of fifths > ending in F and D min. It is reported that Chopin sold them to > Camille Pleyel.. It would be interesting to know if Pleyel > published the Preludes in this order, or if it was Chopin's idea. A > great concern of these pioneer piano makers was the tuning, in > particular a method that would allow pieces in all 24 keys to be > played on the same tuning. If Pleyel had any intention of showcasing > these preludes on his pianos in a particular temperament, it would be > of greatest interest to tuners today. Looking in Jorgensen there is > no mention of Pleyel in the index. One would think Pleyel the maker > of pianos and publisher of piano music (that's what I call having > your cake and eating it to) might have something to say about piano > tuning. Hopefully he and others especially Bach did, and their notes > remain yet to be discovered. > > Richard Moody > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:09:02 EST > From: JIMRPT <JIMRPT@aol.com> > Subject: Re: They Whiten Your Teeth and Freshen Your Breath > > List; > All this talk of Historical Temperaments brings to mind another historically > "tempered" society, namely the Irish :-) I suppose that the term "irish" > these days includes 'all' who are "Irish", "pseudo Irish", and "wannabe > Irish", as well as the occasional Scot who believes themself to be really > "Irish". :-) > Anyway, as today tis being the St Patty's day that it tis, it's wishing each > and every one on the list a truly glorious and happiness filled St. Patty's. > May your day be truly graced with the spirit of the celebartion............. > and "may the road rise up to meet you" as you travel throughout your appointed > rounds. > (of course this toast may explain why the Irish are so temperamental....after > all if the road "rises up to meet you" aren't you 'always' going uphill ? :-) > Y'all have a great day, ya heah? > Jim Bryant (FL) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:41:43 +0000 > From: Michel Lachance <chance@interlinx.qc.ca> > Subject: New old style ETD > > Dear list, > > As I was surfing at random I fell on this page which advertises > electronic tuning devices for "piano and organ". The company, HMR, is > totally unknown to me and the devices looks bulky and very much as > suitable for piano tuning as the Strobotuner was. > > You can have a look on these at this web page: > > http://www.hmrcomm.com/music/index.html > > Happy surfing > > Michel Lachance. RPT > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:51:03 +0000 > From: Michel Lachance <chance@interlinx.qc.ca> > Subject: Top of the morning to ya'! > > To all fellows who have a green irish shamrock in their heart, I wish a > nice St-Patrick's Day. > > Truly yours, > > Michel Lachance > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:51:22 +0000 > From: Michel Lachance <chance@interlinx.qc.ca> > Subject: Top of the morning to ya'! > > To all fellows who have a green irish shamrock in their heart, I wish > you a nice St-Patrick's Day. > > Truly yours, > > Michel Lachance > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:41:07 -0500 (EST) > From: Stephen Birkett <birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca> > Subject: devil's advocate > > Read on, and note the date. > I pass this on with no comment for now. (Bill Garlick are you there?) > > Stephen > - -------------------------------------------------------- > > Montal, L'Art d'accorder soi-meme son piano > Paris: Meissonnier, 1836). > (Annotated translation excerpts courtesy of Sandra Rosenblum) > - --------------------------------------------------- > > Montal begins by discussing the tuning instructions in a number of recent > books and describing the defect(s) of each. He states that there are two > types of temperament: egal (moyen), which creates equality between the > dozen half-steps of the scale, and inegale, in which some half-steps are a > little different and which favors the purity [justesse] of certain keys to > the detriment of others. In effect, he writes, the true purpose of > temperament ought to be to apportion the alteration among the largest > number of intervals possible in order to make it less perceptible. Today > our pianists play unconcernedly in all the keys, thus equal temperament > ought to be an absolute necessity. And composers follow their inspirations > and write just as well in F-sharp as in F-natural, in D-flat and A-flat as > well as in C and G-natural. Finally Montal acknowledges that he is happy > to have made a special study of mathematics and of music before devoting > himself to the art of tuning pianos, "for it is from the alliance of these > three types of knowledge that I have deduced the reliable, straighforward, > and easy method that I offer to the public today". > > Equal temperament consists of changing intervals by the same quantity in a > manner that divides the octave into twelve equal half steps. This > makes all the keys equally perfect or, rather, equally out of tune, for > none ought to be exactly perfect, but only tolerable. According to > montal's method, one learns the degree of alteration of major thirds > necessary in equal temperament by tuning three successive major thirds > equally, and just enough wider [forte] than than perfect, so that the top > note forms a perfect octave with the bottom note. Four successive minor > thirds must be made slightly narrow [faible] to accomodate then within a > perfect octave. If four successive fifths, starting on c1, are each tuned > to be perfect, the top note of the series, e3, if lowered two octaves, > would make too wide a major third with the bottom c1. Therefore, the > fifths must be made narrow by lowering their top notes and this alteration > must be equally apportioned so that the top and bottom notes of the series > form a major third exactly as wide as those within an octave. Finally, for > teaching purposes, this process is repeated with descending fifths, which > are made narrow by raising thier lower notes. > > The progression for Montal's tuning is a series of descending fifths, with > ascending octaves interspersed as needed to keep the setting of the > temperament within the range f-b1. One tunes in succesion a1, the "lower" > a as a perfect octave, and d1 as a slightly narrow fifth down from a1. The > purity of the fifth is disturbed only "by a very light beating". The test > of a wide fourth (a-d1) is then applied. From here the succession for > tuning is d1-g,g-g1,g1-c1,c1-f,f-f1 / f1-a#(bflat), > a#-a#1,a#1-d#1,d#1-g#,g#-g#1,g#1-c#1 / c#1-f#,f#-f#1,f#1-b,b-b1,b1-e1. > Finally one tests the fifth e1-1. > > The two slashes (/) in the series show where Montal interrupts the tuning > progression to apply tests for accuracy. At the first slash the tests > include the major thirds f-a and f1-a1, and triad f-a-c1, but particularly > the six-four chord c1-f1-a1, the arrangement of which - with the major > third on top - allows the ear to detect the degree of alteration more > precisely than in other position. At the second slash Montal urges testing > with the three major thirds within the octave f-f1. These thirds, f-a, > a-c#1, and dflat-f1 ought to be "equally wide" and when "struck one after > the other ought to produce exactly the same effect on the ear". > Interestingly, after the fifth c#1-f# is tuned, Montal suggests trying the > chord f#-a#-c#1 which "ought to produce the same effect as the chord > f-a-c1". This statement acknowledges the lack of key colour that results > from equal temperament. > > Similar tests apply at the end of the tuning. For those who may not have > achieved an accurate enough temperament Montal gives the entire tuning > progression in reverse order, with rising fifths, allowing the tuner to > retrace the steps to find and repair any error(s). When the temperament > has been set successfully, the remainder of the piano is tuned in octaves > and tested with the fifth below. The final verification includes playing > four-part chords around the circle of fifths, during which all the keys > should sound "equally tolerable", followed by playing chromatic scales in > octaves, first in the treble, then in the bass. > > After a long section on repairing pianos, Montal presents a chapter on > acoustics, in which he included the fractions that express the precise > physical relationships of all chromatic intervals, with the distinctions > between enharmonic tones. > > Stephen > > Stephen Birkett Fortepianos > Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos > 464 Winchester Drive > Waterloo, Ontario > Canada N2T 1K5 > tel: 519-885-2228 > email: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:04:21 EST > From: Billbrpt <Billbrpt@aol.com> > Subject: Re: HT's (Ad Nauseum) > > In a message dated 98-03-17 02:43:55 EST, you write: > > << Seriously. I can understand how pained you might be to hear that the tuning > work that you have been doing all these years is fundamentally wrong, > according to Bill Bremmer, and that you'd better start learning how and when > to tune historical temperaments. >> > > I have never said that choosing to tune ET is "wrong". It, for me however has > become the very last choice of temperament that I personally would ever make. > So far, since the beginning of 1990, I have never made that choice except when > working on an RPT Tuning Exam Master Tuning. > > There is a kind of temperament that I have very explcitely stated was wrong: > Reverse-Well (RW). Many on the List say they have never heard of it. As a > CTE and because of my training as such, I have observed that it is a very > common result of practices which are flawed because of a lack of thorough > understanding of the issues of temperament. > > When one believes that ET is really the only practical temperament to use and > to just get fairly close to a state of equality is good enough, the result > very often is RW and that is clearly wrong. What is also wrong is closing > one's eyes to and turning away from the kind of knowledge and enlightenment > that can truly make the difference between a true ET and a RW. > > I fully respect those technicians who believe in and choose ET as their > preferred choice of temperament. I have a problem though with those whose > fundamental ignorance is their major stregnth. Tom, I believe you will be a > far better tuner as the result of these discussions even if you never choose > to take up the HT's as part of your practice. Keith M. has also stated that > he has carefully pondered these discussions. He now uses an ETD that allows > him to tune a true ET with consistency. The ETD will virtually never permit a > RW. Tuning 4ths & 5ths only without 3rds checks or with only cursory or > dubiously valuable checks often results in an RW. > > Loudly proclaiming the sole correctness of and ET and insisting on its > exclusive use but tuning instead an RW out of ignorance is tantamount to > bigotry. > > Bill Bremmer RPT > Madison, Wisconsin > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:11:15 EST > From: Billbrpt <Billbrpt@aol.com> > Subject: Re: HT's (Ad Nauseum) > > In a message dated 98-03-17 02:43:55 EST, you write: > > << I can't imagine a Bach chorale style of music in some of the darker keys. > >> > > You probably won't find that style in the remote keys in Bach's music. What > you will find in those keys are fast, flighty passages where harsh intervals > are never sustained. The temperament will add brilliance to the music but you > will not hear anything that actually sounds out of tune because you will not > be dwelling (or banging) on any harsh intervals. > > Bill Bremmer RPT > Madison, Wisconsin > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:59 -0500 (EST) > From: Glen_Deligdisch@sil.org > Subject: Epoxy vs CA > > Dear List, > > I want to thank all of you that responded to my 30 minute epoxy > question. The information you gave was just what I needed. > > Just one more little aside. Talking to the folks in the hobby shop > revealed some interesting opinions. They said that model builders > coming to their store preferred epoxy over CA. I asked why. They > said that CA glue dissipates out of the wood glued joints, eventually > nullifying the bond. Epoxy remains permanently. Model airplane > builders say that they find CA joints begin coming apart after about 1 > and 1/2 years but epoxy joints never break at the joint again. They > say they use CA glue for those on the field emergency repairs but > prefer epoxy during building times. > > Have any of you that use CA glue for repairs noticed these repairs > coming apart at a later date? > > Thanks, > > Glen > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Glen and Ruth Deligdisch > P.O. Box 248 > Waxhaw, NC 28173 > > Tel: (704) 843-0989 > > E-mail: Glen_Deligdisch@SIL.ORG > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:16:01 EST > From: Billbrpt <Billbrpt@aol.com> > Subject: Re: HT's (Ad Nauseum) > > In a message dated 98-03-17 02:43:55 EST, you write: > > << At the moment, my wife is playing Schumann (Blumenstuck op 19 in Ab > major). It sounds offal, I mean awful. All of the tones having equal value > seems to put the temperament in a bad light. The key of Ab in Vlotti-Young > requires some major finessing by the pianist. >> > > Just curious, does your wife have the same opinion of the sound as you do? > You are right when you say that the music must be played differently than it > is when tuned in ET. The faster beating that you hear which disturbs you can > and should become that which gives stregnth and character to the music. > > Bill Bremmer RPT > Madison, Wisconsin > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:29:25 EST > From: Billbrpt <Billbrpt@aol.com> > Subject: Re: HT's > > In a message dated 98-03-17 03:30:20 EST, you write: > > << great concern of these pioneer piano makers was the tuning, in particular > a method that would allow pieces in all 24 keys to be played on the same > tuning. If Pleyel had any intention of showcasing these preludes on his > pianos in a particular temperament, it would be of greatest interest to tuners > today. >> > > In all likelyhood, Pleyel may have thought in terms of ET as Henry Steinway > and Broadwood may have. But what their factory tuners and tuners of the > period actually did would not qualify as ET today. Read some of the > supporting documentation surrounding the Broadwood chapters in Jorgensen's > book. You will see that it is because of the temperament sequences (bearing > plans) that were actually used that a certain inequality was the result. > > Curiously, this is analogous to what is happening today when tuners tune > Reverse-Well (RW). They think in terms of and believe in ET but because of > their methods which are flawed and incomplete, the resultant temperament is > decidedly unequal without their even realizing it and unfortunately in > opposition to the the historically correct pattern of a WT or VT. > > Bill Bremmer RPT > Madison, Wisconsin > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:31:01 EST > From: RptBob1 <RptBob1@aol.com> > Subject: Re: They Whiten Your Teeth and Freshen Your Breath > > In a message dated 98-03-17 01:50:37 EST, you write: > > << It seems that despite mail filters, that this topic won't roll up > and go to GREAT ENLIGHTENED land like we are informed it will (and > don't you pathetic aural rev.WT tuners expect to follow... note to > BB: CAUTION... IRONY or SARCASM present) >> > > At last ! A calm ,cool and collected reply and explanation of HT and its place > in the wide,wide world of tuning. I enjoyed reading this and can see its > importance. This does not convert me to the system,but at least I can better > understand why it rouses such passion in some of you. > > I shall cease my comments and exercise -to exorcise- my delete button when I > see the letters "HT". > > It'll just be my luck to get a call next week from some Baroque Consort asking > me if I could please tune their harpsichord and pianoforte to some special > temperament. Then I will come back,hat in hand, asking for your help. Then I > will be cleansed. > Then I will be free (except for what I charge that Consort). > > Bob Bergantino,RPT > South Euclid, Ohio > > ------------------------------ > > End of pianotech-digest V1997 #670 > ********************************** >
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