Temperament choice, Beethoven 5th Concerto

[Richard Moody]

----------
> From: Stephen Birkett <birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca>
> To: pianotech@ptg.org
> Subject: Re: Temperament choice, Beethoven 5th Concerto
> Date: Friday, March 27, 1998 8:41 AM
> 
> Richard wrote:
> > ...  The logical question begging the logical
> > answer is "How does the orchestra tune?"--- so tune the piano that
way. 
> > ....They
> > don't play in different temperaments, their intervals are  centered
around
> > Just Intonation, no matter what key they play in, unless I am gravely
> > mistaken..... 
> ...alas you are gravely mistaken Richard. Historical orchestras were
quite
> able, and expected, to adjust their intonation to match the tempered
> keyboard they were playing with. And this was the accepted practice, as
> the tempered instrument had no choice. Don't forget that *all*
orchestral 
> music till late 18th C. had keyboard continuo, and the tempered continuo

> defined the temperament the entire orchestra had to play in.
> 
> Stephen
> 
> Stephen Birkett Fortepianos

Thank you Stephen, 
	The worst part of being "gravely mistaken" (my words at first) are the
lugubrious overtones.  (Hmm maybe that's the best part) But I am not so
sure I am.  If we agree that orchestras play in Just Intonation, then I am
not gravely mistaken, as that is the basis I would like to approach the
tuning of keyboards when playing with orchestras. You point out that
orchestras did adjust their intonation to match the tempered keyboard they
were playing with. I accept that, but I wanted to establish that when NOT
playing with keyboards the orchestra does play in just intonation.
Actually I would really rather ask that than state it, as I am not an
orchestra player, execpt for percussion, and even that is limited to only
one semester. So adjust their intonation from what? 
	But what you say about the relation of the orchestra to the keyboard is
really the interest I share.  The key word here is "intonation". Perhaps
we better define it, or specify which of the many meanings we are using. I
say "Just Intonation" meaning a temperament tuned from just intervals. 
When you say "the orchestra adjusts their intonation" I believe you mean
that the orchestra knows the differnence and plays the difference between
G# and Ab.  There are no such choices on the piano. In historical
temperaments you get one or the other, maybe; in Equal Temperament, they
(G# and Ab) are the same.  It is as you say the orchestra must adjust to
the temperament the keyboard is tuned to. So where do we go from here? 
	Your  observation about "keyboard continuo" is something I would like to
learn more about. This has been mentioned before, but sometimes complex
concepts take time and explanation to to be comprehended. .  Is keyboard
continuo the sound of the harpsichord in baroque music such as  Vivaldi,
"The four Seasons"?  Is the part the harpsichord is playing called
continuo?  Were there "rules" that defined this part?
If you listen to the harpsichord and the orchestra, how much does it
really sound in tune? It seems that some places aren't so good as others. 
Is it the players, is it me, is it the tonality of plucked iron strings
played against bowed  strings? Is that why it is kept in the back ground
so much? 
There is something called Thorough Bass.  Does this have anything do do
with the harpsichord? What is contrapuntal?  
	One last note on tuning, isn't there a statement in Bach's WTC that they
can all be played without retuning? Does that mean harpsichordists retuned
for certain keys when not playing in the temperament of WTC? Wouldn't they
also retune  for orchestras? 

Richard Moody