Greg, Very well said. At times we have to walk a fine line between the playability and of an instrument or the actual restoration and preservation of the piano sacrificing performance. It boils down to the intention of the client's purpose for the piano. The intent of the museum is to restore the piano to it's original condition which means that nothing is to be introduced into the piano that was not currently in place at manufacturing. The only exception is what is physically missing and even then those "parts" are to be duplicated to match the original. The soundboard has sufficient crown but many cracks. It will not be replaced although in any other piano we would drop in a new board.( That would be rebuilding, not restoring.)The soundboard did not have a decal on it, which leads me to wonder if a previous technician had removed it in doing earlier work on the piano. Once we pull the plate we will send some samples of the soundboard varnish off to have it analyzed, that should also let us know if the plate color was altered.If you could shed some light on the decal I would appreciate it. The rosewood veneer was separating from the case and the inlays had to be removed and reglued. The case is now back to it's original color of a cross between a medium brown mahogany shade to a teak colored wood. We used the original type of finish used for the period which is a shellac applied with the same technique for the period which is the hand rubbed French polishing method. We are fortunate that we have a mastercraftsman restorer in our employment from Italy whose past clients included Gianni Versace, Luigi Innocenti, Sergio Biemmi, and others. He came to us with extensive museum restoration experience in Europe. Of course all of our work is documented in a conservator's report that we include with the piano showing photos of all aspects of the work as well as parts used and a list of all glues, powders, stains etc...so that the next set of restores can see exactly what and how the restoration was done. ( The paperwork is the not so glamorous side of restoration.) Well, that's kinda where we are at this point. One more thing we found a PTG tuning sticker stuck to the side of the plate strut with tuning dates scribbled in ink. TACKY Regards, Ed Mashburn,RPT Piano Services of Florida,Inc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@planetbeagle.com> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:13 AM Subject: Rebuilding vs. restoring > As one of the antique Steinway owners (1866 Style 4? or whatever 8'5" used to be called) whose postings started this discussion, I'd like to give y'all my owner's and piano lover's view of the definitions. > > In the past I've been heavily involved with antique furniture, and in that realm I'd say the definitions are fairly well recognized, and fall largely in line with what Jim Bryant wrote, namely that in a restoration you try as hard as you can to preserve or duplicate the original materials and use the original methods of the piece's makers. Of course time, cost, and ability will dictate how far you go in this pursuit of the original, and how close you get to the ideal often affects both the historical significance of the restored piece and its value in the antiques marketplace. > > To do a top-quality restoration is not at all impossible, but it often requires a large body of knowledge and experience, and hence is done by relatively few restorers. The fact that it is not impossible is plainly shown by the success of the large number of antiques forgers, many of whom are world-class experts in duplicating the materials and methods of the past (it's their job, after all ;-) > > In the case of pianos, however, you have a somewhat different situation, made different by the fact that few antiques collectors are interested in the piano as a piece of furniture. I'm ignoring, for the moment, those folks that buy beautiful-looking antique pianos that nobody will ever play for their homes. Happily, the vast majority of restored or rebuilt pianos today are made for people like me who love to play the piano. > > I'm a lover of antiques, but I want a piano that will perform every bit as well as a modern piano, if not better. So my personal goals, in having my 1866 Steinway rebuilt, is to replace anything that will stand between me and the beautiful tone and response I crave, but to preserve or faithfully reproduce everything else. > > This, I believe, is what many antique piano owners want. We're all a little disappointed to see one of the many old Style 2 pianos that Steinway "modernized" at some point in its life. Sure it's a great piano, and can sound sublime, but we miss the lion's paws and scroll-work music desk that was robbed from it (I often wonder if there isn't a hidden cache of these old parts in a warehouse somewhere in New York ;-). > > Because of this dual desire for restored cabinetry with rebuilt piano guts, I would call what I'm doing to my piano a rebuild. This is a term that doesn't really exist much in the antiques world, because to do anything like it would destroy any piece's value as an antique. (Witness what happens if someone is foolish enough to remove the tiny eighth-inch-square glob of remaining paint from an 18th century chair; its value drops from thousands of dollars to almost nothing!) > > But in the realm of pianos we want to actually *use* these wonderful devices for their original purpose, making music, and usually we want a fully modern sound and feel. It is, first and foremost, not a piece of furniture but rather a musical instrument. In our case, rebuilding can significantly enhance the value of the piano, and ensure that its useful life of an instrument continues long after its interest as an antique is depleted. > > There are of course, more and more, performers and enthusiasts who also want to recreate the period feel and sound of the instrument, a desire which moves the definition away from rebuilding and back towards historical restoration. Just like in the antiques realm, there is doubtless a spectrum of restoration outcomes based again on time, knowledge, and available resources. > > But unlike in antiques, I would not say that the farther you move towards the ideal restoration, the piano's value necessarily increases. In many cases, especially in very old instruments, the technical limitations of the instrument and difference in required playing styles may dim many performers enthusiasm for owning the piano. It's all in what you wanted from the restoration in the first place. > > Comments? > > Enough babbling! > Greg > > At 10:50 PM 11/2/00 -0500, JIMRPT@AOL.COM wrote: > >Re- what?? > >In the final analysis, as in so much else in this business, it is the domain > >of the tech and the customer too decide what any specific re-whatever means > >to them and their contract for the re-whatevering. > > > >Definitons are not much help, i.e.,: (AHD) > >Rebuild-"1. To build again." > >Restore-"2. To bring back to an original condition:" > >Refurbish-"To make clean, bright, or fresh again; renovate" > >Renovate-"1. To restore to an earlier condition, as by repairing or > >remodeling." > >Repair-"3. To renew or revitalize." > > > > So you see the meanings of each of these words can be interchangable and it > >doesn't do us well to fulminate ad infinitum over them. > > > > Now don't go saying that PTG has defined these terms cause it ain't > >needfully so..at least in the context of "rebuild" versus "restore" as has > >been tossed around these last few days. In the PTG Tech bulletin on > >"Rebuilding/Reconditioning" > >it says......."Rebuilding *restores* the piano to original condition or > >better." > >Well then y'all if "Rebuilding *restores* to original condition" what the > >heck do *restoration* do? > > > > Is there a difference between "rebuild" and "restore"...well in my mind > >there is but this is always guided by the customer. If'n I gots ta use a > >chisel and maul it gonna cost more than if'n I can use a router...doncha > >know?? :-) > > > > A museum quality "restoration" (original spec everything) is a very > >expensive and time intensive project and not one that we as techs are likely > >to run into very often. A true "restoration" in this sense means that if the > >original had hand cut screws or bolts and you did not use hand cut screws and > >bolts to replace those which were unusable from the original you have not > >done a 'true' restoration. If the dampers of the original came from Merino > >sheep and the ones you installed did not come from Merino sheep you have not > >done a true "restoration". If you improved the playability in the slightest > >degree from the original you have not done a true "restoration". Well....... > >you get the idea huh? > > > > Has anyone on the list ever truly done a museum quality "restoration" I'd be > >willing to bet not......course it wouldn't be the first time I have been > >wrong! :-) > > > > So go forth and do good without regard as to which re-? you decide to do. > >My view. > >Jim Bryant (FL) > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Greg Anderson greg@PlanetBeagle.com > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Piano Services Tech Dept" <TechDept@pianoservices.com> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Rebuilding vs. restoring > Greg, > > Very well said. At times we have to walk a fine line between the playability > and of an instrument or the actual restoration and preservation of the piano > sacrificing performance. It boils down to the intention of the client's > purpose for the piano. > The intent of the museum is to restore the piano to it's original condition > which means that nothing is to be introduced into the piano that was not > currently in place at manufacturing. The only exception is what is > physically missing and even then those "parts" are to be duplicated to match > the original. The soundboard factually has sufficient crown but many cracks. > It will not be replaced although in any other piano we would drop in a new > board.( That would be rebuilding, not restoring.)The soundboard did not have > a decal on it, which leads me to wonder if a previous technician had removed > it in doing earlier work on the piano. Once we pull the plate we will send > some samples of the soundboard varnish off to have it analyzed, that should > also let us know if the plate color was altered.If you could shed some light > on the decal I would appreciate it. The rosewood veneer was separating > from the case and the inlays had to be removed and reglued. The case is now > back to it's original color of a cross between a medium brown mahogany shade > to a teak colored wood. We used the original type of finish used for the > period which is a shellac applied with the same technique for the period > which is the hand rubbed French polishing method. We are fortunate that we > have a mastercraftsman restorer in our employment from Italy whose past > clients included Gianni Versace, Luigi Innocenti, Sergio Biemmi, and others. > He came to us with extensive museum restoration experience in Europe. > Of course all of our work is documented in a conservator's report that we > include with the piano showing photos of all aspects of the work as well as > parts used and a list of all glues, powders, stains etc...so that the next > set of restores can see exactly what and how the restoration was done. ( The > paperwork is the not so glamorous side of restoration.) Well, that's kinda > where we are at this point. One more thing we found a PTG tuning sticker > stuck to the side of the plate strut with tuning date scribbled in ink. > TACKY > > Regards, > > Ed Mashburn,RPT > Piano Services of Florida,Inc. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@planetbeagle.com> > To: <pianotech@ptg.org> > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:13 AM > Subject: Rebuilding vs. restoring > > > > As one of the antique Steinway owners (1866 Style 4? or whatever 8'5" used > to be called) whose postings started this discussion, I'd like to give y'all > my owner's and piano lover's view of the definitions. > > > > In the past I've been heavily involved with antique furniture, and in that > realm I'd say the definitions are fairly well recognized, and fall largely > in line with what Jim Bryant wrote, namely that in a restoration you try as > hard as you can to preserve or duplicate the original materials and use the > original methods of the piece's makers. Of course time, cost, and ability > will dictate how far you go in this pursuit of the original, and how close > you get to the ideal often affects both the historical significance of the > restored piece and its value in the antiques marketplace. > > > > To do a top-quality restoration is not at all impossible, but it often > requires a large body of knowledge and experience, and hence is done by > relatively few restorers. The fact that it is not impossible is plainly > shown by the success of the large number of antiques forgers, many of whom > are world-class experts in duplicating the materials and methods of the past > (it's their job, after all ;-) > > > > In the case of pianos, however, you have a somewhat different situation, > made different by the fact that few antiques collectors are interested in > the piano as a piece of furniture. I'm ignoring, for the moment, those > folks that buy beautiful-looking antique pianos that nobody will ever play > for their homes. Happily, the vast majority of restored or rebuilt pianos > today are made for people like me who love to play the piano. > > > > I'm a lover of antiques, but I want a piano that will perform every bit as > well as a modern piano, if not better. So my personal goals, in having my > 1866 Steinway rebuilt, is to replace anything that will stand between me and > the beautiful tone and response I crave, but to preserve or faithfully > reproduce everything else. > > > > This, I believe, is what many antique piano owners want. We're all a > little disappointed to see one of the many old Style 2 pianos that Steinway > "modernized" at some point in its life. Sure it's a great piano, and can > sound sublime, but we miss the lion's paws and scroll-work music desk that > was robbed from it (I often wonder if there isn't a hidden cache of these > old parts in a warehouse somewhere in New York ;-). > > > > Because of this dual desire for restored cabinetry with rebuilt piano > guts, I would call what I'm doing to my piano a rebuild. This is a term > that doesn't really exist much in the antiques world, because to do anything > like it would destroy any piece's value as an antique. (Witness what happens > if someone is foolish enough to remove the tiny eighth-inch-square glob of > remaining paint from an 18th century chair; its value drops from thousands > of dollars to almost nothing!) > > > > But in the realm of pianos we want to actually *use* these wonderful > devices for their original purpose, making music, and usually we want a > fully modern sound and feel. It is, first and foremost, not a piece of > furniture but rather a musical instrument. In our case, rebuilding can > significantly enhance the value of the piano, and ensure that its useful > life of an instrument continues long after its interest as an antique is > depleted. > > > > There are of course, more and more, performers and enthusiasts who also > want to recreate the period feel and sound of the instrument, a desire which > moves the definition away from rebuilding and back towards historical > restoration. Just like in the antiques realm, there is doubtless a spectrum > of restoration outcomes based again on time, knowledge, and available > resources. > > > > But unlike in antiques, I would not say that the farther you move towards > the ideal restoration, the piano's value necessarily increases. In many > cases, especially in very old instruments, the technical limitations of the > instrument and difference in required playing styles may dim many performers > enthusiasm for owning the piano. It's all in what you wanted from the > restoration in the first place. > > > > Comments? > > > > Enough babbling! > > Greg > > > > At 10:50 PM 11/2/00 -0500, JIMRPT@AOL.COM wrote: > > >Re- what?? > > >In the final analysis, as in so much else in this business, it is the > domain > > >of the tech and the customer too decide what any specific re-whatever > means > > >to them and their contract for the re-whatevering. > > > > > >Definitons are not much help, i.e.,: (AHD) > > >Rebuild-"1. To build again." > > >Restore-"2. To bring back to an original condition:" > > >Refurbish-"To make clean, bright, or fresh again; renovate" > > >Renovate-"1. To restore to an earlier condition, as by repairing or > > >remodeling." > > >Repair-"3. To renew or revitalize." > > > > > > So you see the meanings of each of these words can be interchangable > and it > > >doesn't do us well to fulminate ad infinitum over them. > > > > > > Now don't go saying that PTG has defined these terms cause it ain't > > >needfully so..at least in the context of "rebuild" versus "restore" as > has > > >been tossed around these last few days. In the PTG Tech bulletin on > > >"Rebuilding/Reconditioning" > > >it says......."Rebuilding *restores* the piano to original condition or > > >better." > > >Well then y'all if "Rebuilding *restores* to original condition" what the > > >heck do *restoration* do? > > > > > > Is there a difference between "rebuild" and "restore"...well in my mind > > >there is but this is always guided by the customer. If'n I gots ta use a > > >chisel and maul it gonna cost more than if'n I can use a router...doncha > > >know?? :-) > > > > > > A museum quality "restoration" (original spec everything) is a very > > >expensive and time intensive project and not one that we as techs are > likely > > >to run into very often. A true "restoration" in this sense means that if > the > > >original had hand cut screws or bolts and you did not use hand cut screws > and > > >bolts to replace those which were unusable from the original you have not > > >done a 'true' restoration. If the dampers of the original came from > Merino > > >sheep and the ones you installed did not come from Merino sheep you have > not > > >done a true "restoration". If you improved the playability in the > slightest > > >degree from the original you have not done a true "restoration". > Well....... > > >you get the idea huh? > > > > > > Has anyone on the list ever truly done a museum quality "restoration" > I'd be > > >willing to bet not......course it wouldn't be the first time I have been > > >wrong! :-) > > > > > > So go forth and do good without regard as to which re-? you decide to > do. > > >My view. > > >Jim Bryant (FL) > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Greg Anderson greg@PlanetBeagle.com > > >
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