----- Original Message -----
From: <A440A@aol.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [ctuner] Brahms & Well Temperamen
...............................Ed Foote
> Whereas ET is much like the architect's
> drawing, WT is more akin to the painter's output. Mr. Good
prefers the
> latter.
...............................the Moody tuner, (Dick "Richard"
Moody) ...........
> >? Don't tell that to Mr Good's tuner who tunes exactly every
time.
........................Ed Foote
> I didn't know that. was that part of the article? If so, I
missed the
> "exact" stipulation.
..............................R Moody..................
It is my conclusion that Mr Good's tuner used a machine. I am
wondering if it is true. If so then then the tuning should be
exact every time.
......................Moody wrote.......................
> > The arguments that temperament influenced music as far as
> >history is concerned is coming to a rapid close. After each
> >tuning scheme is finally translated, it is seen by tuners,
> >musicians, musicologists, and music historians, that
temperament
> >doesn't really matter unless it produces wolves.
..............................Foote
replies............................>
> Many tuners would diagree. I have customers to whom it
matters a >great deal.
....................................ric Moody
asks.............................
Are you saying your customers must have wolves in their
temperaments?
............................Ed Foote continues............ (picked
out by rm)
>If you offered to tune their pianos in ET, for free, they
wouldn't let
> you do it, but will pay top dollar for a Broadwood's style of
tuning.
.........................R Moody replies..............
Yeah, and I had clients that would have fired me if I changed the
way I tuned for them which was ET. ET has its place, historic
temperaments has its place, "dial a tuning" also has its place.
.......................from E Foote
>There are finer harmonic nuances than wolves.
.........................Dick replies..................
We better define wolves, or agree that the direction of
temperament is to produce less and less wolves.
My point of view is that there were two directions in the
development of temperament. In the beginning it seems for some
reason that pure 3rds were desired and tuners used the theory of
the syntonic comma to establish a bearing of pure thirds. They
flattened each 5th by a quarter of that comma to get pure 3rds.
This is referred to today as Meantone which resulted in three
wolf 3rds and one very prounounced wolf 5th. It made some key
signatures very nice, but others not so nice to play in. It is my
belief that organ tuners thought pipe organs sounded better with
these flat 5ths but pure 3rds, and stringed keyboard instrument
tuners followed the directions of organ tuners. It is important to
note the tuners of stringed keyboard instruments were the
musicians themselves.
Along came musicians who wanted to play in all the keys on the
keyboard. They reasoned that if all the 5ths are flat, perhaps
some of those 5ths could be tuned pure and thus eliminate the wolf
5th at least. Thus the so called "wells" came about. It is
very difficult to flatten each 5th the same amount, and they
reasoned that if six or five 5ths were tune pure it would make
tuning much easier in addition to eliminating wolves.
As long at was realized that a series of flattened 5ths would
produce pure 3rds, it must have been realized that a series of
less flattened 5ths would make the circle of 5ths come out. This
is of course ET. How long ET has been attempted is still a
process of discovery, as more and more old and ancient tuning
instructions are being translated.
......................Ed Foote
said.................................
>We start seeing F# used more and more as the
> temperament equalized over the late 1800's, and modern ET era
(1900 >on) music
> is all over the map, showing no preference for any key. Doesn't
this at
> least hint at something going on between temperament and
composition?
.........................rm replies
..................................
Yes, composers are enjoying the freedom of ET.
....................ric also wrote..................in a previous
post..................
> >When the so called Wells are put up against ET no one can tell
the
> difference.
>
.......................................Ed
replies.......................................
> Ric, I gotta disagree here. In comparisons between the two
in many >PTG venues, non-Et was distinctly preferred over a
state-of-the-art ET. >In my classes, after 90 minutes of
listening to a WT, the previously >accepted ET sounds VERY
different, (and "shallow" according to more >than a few remarks).
> In my lab at Vanderbilt, no one is left unstruck by the
difference between >an ET and a Broadwood tuning!
........................ric
moody....replies............................................
OK but play two recordings and ask the listeners to pick out
which is ET and which is not. Actually for fair scientific
analysis play 10 recordings of something other than ET and 10
recordings of ET and see how many listeners to pick out ET from
non ET. The only quibble might be is if the choice of "can't
tell the difference" appears on the quiz. Its like asking piano
technicians to listen to recordings and tell which is the SD 10
from the SnS D. It can't be done.
We know a client may extol a tuning, I have had one or two do
so, and it has been ET. I am sure I could tune a Montal ET and
get the same praise... from you even. !! in a blind test!!!. (yes
this is a challange) I would like to say the same for any of the
historical tunings such as from Werkmeister, or Kirnberger or
Marpurg but the aural instuctions have not been translated into
English.
>
...................................> Ric again
rote.............................
> >Now we hear that Edwin Good says he can. So if he can
demonstrate
> >he can tell the difference between an ET and the Well he
prefers,
> >I will gladly learn to tune the well he prefers because all
> >musicians would want to hear a "rich lively tone" in their
freshly
> >tuned pianos.
>
> Great! Now you are getting the idea. Edwin Good is
already
> demonstrating this, with his wallet! And so are many other
customers, >they wouldn't dream of letting an ET-only tuner tune
their piano because they do not want an ET!
...............ric of course is skeptical and says......
If Edwin Good can pick out a non ET tuning from ET in a blind
listening I will believe you. Until then it is only puff the magic
dragon.
...............................Ed writes
>My point is that a tech may be able to earn more money if they
can tune in a variety of ways and understand the implications
well enough to create a market for themselves. I have seen this
happen in two areas already, the WT tuner is gradually acquiring
more and more of the discriminating customers. An
analogy would be that we can sell more fruit if we have apples and
oranges
> and bananas than if we only have apples.
.......................ric
replies...............puff...........................
................Ed....from the last post......................
> I wrote:
> >> Simply switching temperaments doesn't automatically
"color"
> > the music to its optimum.
>
> Ric answers:
> >Ah the myth of "color" caused by temperament. Hmmm looks
like
> > you are now saying it (temperament) doesn't color
> >music.............
> That is not what I said at all. Lemme try again: I said
SWITCHING
> temperaments doesn't automatically color music to its OPTIMUM !
.Temperaments color music, switching them may or may not make an
improvement for a particular piece or composer, or era.
..................ric replies...............
Ok so you say "Temperaments color music" but SWITCHING
temperaments doesn't automatically color music to its OPTIMUM!
Well then, what temperament does color music to its optimum?. Can
you explain to musicians and musiciolgoist and music historians
how "Temperaments color music"? Is it pure 5ths, and wider 3rds?
Is it narrow 5ths and purer 3rds. Where is there color and where
is there not color? If ET is not color, what is color? Can you
tell us how to tune to get back the color that is not in ET?
..................PUFF I say.......................
.....................ric rote.............................
>What is the big deal between the "typical Victorian tunings"
(which was
never practiced, as research is revealing) vs a sloppy ET
...........Ed asks.......
> What research is revealing a lack of practise? Do you have
>something more plausible than Jorgensen's interpretation of
Ellis's >documentation? if so, I would like to read it.
..............ric the student of history replies.
Ellis's documentations are written in English by himself. They
are in the Dover editon of Herman Helmnoltz, "Sensation of Tone"
And yes there is a mistake of reference by Jorgensen that he
gave in the Journal article.
...............Ed wrote..................................
>Even the 1885 tunings vary ET in
> the same general form,which is the form of all the earlier WT's.
This isn't
> the result of coincidental error.
..........................ric asks..................
what form is this? and what is coincidential
error?................
> > The modern machines with theoretical offsets will
> > give a consistent temperament, but compare that with results
from
> > the original directions that guided the ear.
>
> I have, and was surprised how close the aural WT's are to
the mechanical
> offsets from ET on good piano scales. In fact, if you really
work at a
> Kirnberger or Young, you can become quite consistant. I can
only imagine
> the really good tuners of 1840 were able to achieve consistant
results.
.....................ric asks............................
the whole enquiry is to find out which temperament the "really
good tuners of 1840" used to acheive "consistant results". Was it
the Kirnberger or the Young? Or did they know both? and were
consistant in two? What are the the original directions?
>
> Ric again:
> >I think you will
> > find, the aural tunings will give much more musical pleasure,
> > especially the ET of Claude Montal of 1836.
>
> Nope, not enough color...
>
> Ed Foote RPT
Ed, I would like to ask how you can say , "Nope, not enough
color..." and ask if you have tuned according to Montal's
instructions and if so how does the music sound. Say of Chopin
Preludes or Waltz...??
I have tuned according to Montal's instructions and I invite you
to play any Chopin or Beethoven or any music you prefer on my
Montal or anyone's Montal. I have tuned according to Montal's
directions and and I am amzed at the ET that comes out.
Richard Moody
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC