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John,
Since, I think, that we are all interested in a piano being the
best it can be whether that involves re-engineering or copying the original
design can we agree that this is not intended to be any kind of a "pissing
match" as you put it? With regard to your points below I'd like to ask
your views on some of the items with a little more specificity.
1) How can you be sure that the original bridges were machined with some
sort of crown and didn't simply take on some kind of compressions set?
2) You say it adds in supporting crown in both directions but if you were
to take a bridge blank (uncrowned) and lay it across an installed and
crowned soundboard (whether rib crowned or compression crowned) could you
not easily press down on both ends of the blank and have it meet the board?
If it is this easy to do how can it aid in the supporting of crown? I'm not
pissing, I really want to know.
3) OK but this could be from compression set as easily as from the
intentional crowning of the bridge, no?
4) It seems to me that this knowledge is what were after here.
5) Well, again, that's what we're trying to find out. If it can be
quantified, at least in some small way, it could be ascertained if the
exercise is worth the effort, if in fact that was an intended original or
beneficial design.
6) I agree that it wouldn't be that hard to do but, again, is it really
desired?
7) Well, yeah, I guess that would be correct. No harm to the piano but i
can think of better things to do if it provides no real benefit.
I hope neither of you minds me jumping in on this. I'd truly like to
understand what the best approach here is. If I'm wrong I'd sure like to
know so that my next board and every one beyond that will get better and
better each time.
regards,
Greg Newell
At 07:40 PM 4/12/2003, you wrote:
>Well Ron,
>
>Are you trying to drown me with questions? I haven't yet finished
>responding to your last flock and now you have a few more. I'll tell you
>what, lets not get into a pissing match on this. From reading your posts
>in the archives I know our points of view are different and I have no
>chance of convincing you of anything. I am not interested in persuading
>you or getting drawn into long debate.
>
>This all started when I tried to answer a question. I think I made my
>point and was of some help. I will continue to try and help those with
>less experience than I by offering input. I also look forward to hearing
>from more experienced technicians who may answer my questions. I think
>there are others on this list that may be interested in discussing piano
>rebuilding issues from a point of view other than piano
>re-engineering. Someone with your level of experience may not need this
>but I know this is what I am interested in. In the years I have been
>rebuilding pianos there are only a few instances when a re-engineering
>approach was practical, beneficial or profitable. Most all of the
>knowledge that has been useful to me comes from studying how these pianos
>worked and sounded. For the most part replicating their design and
>implementing many of the original techniques leads directly to better
>results and improved efficiency. I know through the phone calls I get and
>questions at chapter meetings I attend that there are many technicians
>just starting out or at an intermediate level that are interested in these
>basics of piano re-building.
>
>As far as crowned bridges are concerned these are the facts as I see them.
>
>1) Some Pianos were made with crowned bridges. Steinway and Mason &
>Hamlin for sure.
>
>2) A crowned bridge works with the ribs to form the belly (soundboard
>crown in both directions).
>
>3) The highest point of the curve was under the low treble.
>
>4) We don't know how or why or if this works to help the tone.
>
>5) It's obvious that a crowned bridge could add strength to the soundboard
>but not sure how much.
>
>6) It is easy and fast to do if you know how to use basic woodworking tools.
>
>7) There is no evidence that it harms the piano in any way.
>
>This is all I have to say about it at this time. In the future could you,
>Ron, please ask only one or two questions at a time?
>
>John Hartman RPT
>
>John Hartman Pianos
[link redacted at request of site owner - Jul 25, 2015]
>Rebuilding Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
>Grand Pianos Since 1979
>
>Piano Technicians Journal
>Journal Illustrator/Contributing Editor
>
>
>Ron Nossaman wrote:
>>
>>>Phew Ron,
>>>
>>>Are you sure you what me to answer all of these questions?
>>
>>Yup, I'm sure.
>>
>>> >> I have worked on many brands of grand pianos and have observed that
>>> >> some pianos seem not to have this feature but the two brands that
>>> >> consistently show evidence of bridge crowning are Steinway and Mason
>>> >> and Hamlin.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > John,
>>> > How then does this correlate with the number of new Steinways we see
>>> > (often enough on the showroom floor) with concave crown in the killer
>>> > octave? It seems to me that if a crowned bridge is supporting soundboard
>>> > crown and making it last longer, there ought to be soundboard crown to
>>> > show for it. Especially in a new piano.
>>>
>>>Since my rebuilding process involves soundboard replacement I usualy
>>>work on pianos that are over the hill - say 40 years old or more.
>>
>>I don't think any of us make a living replacing soundboards in new
>>pianos, so I would assume that as a given.
>>
>>>As far as how new pianos are fairing; all I can think is that we are
>>>simply not living at a time in history that is conducive to building
>>>fine pianos. We no longer have the cheap skilled work force or the
>>>economic momentum (competition for a growing marker) that was the
>>>fertile environment that nurtured these fine instruments.
>>>Furthermore, and most telling is how far we are removed from the
>>>aesthetic soil that gave rise to a true renaissance in piano building.
>>>The public's ears are no longer attuned to the subtleties of tone and
>>>fewer and fewer of them would know the difference between the frogs seen
>>>in hotel lobbies or the finely prepared pianos of Carnegie Hall. Now
>>>days we are lucky if a few pop out the factory door without fatal flaws.
>>
>>We're talking about crowned bridges here, and these bridges are being
>>made by the same methods, and on the same machinery, and from close
>>enough to the same material as they were forty - or eighty years ago. If
>>they supported crown then, they ought to support crown now. At least long
>>enough to make it out of the showroom. So again, why do so many new
>>Steinways with these crowned bridges have concave crown in the killer
>>octaves? This is simple straightforward mechanics not having a lot to do
>>with the cost of labor or the golden age of anything. You said that
>>crowned bridges support soundboard crown and make it last longer. If
>>that's the case, why don't we see it in the pianos?
>>
>>>Fortunately the news is not all black for us technicians in this era of
>>>shrinking interest in the piano. There are still a few great oaks
>>>standing in the old growth forest. They with there followers are still
>>>interested in the piano and the music written for it. I can't think of
>>>any of them that I have met that would not want their piano to sound and
>>>play as well as those built at the height of the golden era of piano
>>>building. It is their hope as - I hear it - that playing these pianos
>>>will give them greater insight into the music they love to play. I think
>>>that studying these instruments is vital to us technicians - and not
>>>just studying how they don't work but how they do work.
>>>
>>>John Hartman RPT
>>
>>How they work, and what does and doesn't make them work is exactly what
>>I'm addressing here.
>>Ron N
>>_______________________________________________
>>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
>
>
>--
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
>
Greg Newell
mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net
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