what's with the new temperaments?(x post)

[Richard Moody]

>When I tell
> pianists that there are two different tunings on side by side
pianos, and >ask
> them to just tell me which sounds better, 99.9% of them have
chosen the
> Broadwood.

To be more truthful perhaps the question should be asked, "Which
piano sounds better?   A. Piano #1,  B Piano #2, C. Can't tell.

And you say they chose the Broadwood.  Isn't that ET?  Are you
referring to  specimens of Broadwood's best tuners as measured by
Ellis ca 1880  and presented in his appendices of his translation
of Helmholtz's  "Sensation of Tone" ? (p. 485)---or what Jorgensen
presented in Big Red?
What cents offsets do you use?
    Ellis measured three of Broadwood's best tuners.  Presumably
AJ Hipkins was one although Ellis only says, " Three grand pianos
[tuned]  by Broadwoods' best tuners, prepared for examination
through the kindness of Mr. A. J. Hipkins, of that house."
Hipkins wrote numerous articles about the piano including the
entry in Encyclopedia Britannica at the turn of the century.   He
claims to have introduced ET to the Broadwood firm in the 1840's
even though James Broadwood had published an article on ET in
1811.

    So it seems what you are suggesting is that when  "99.9% have
chosen the Broadwood.",  they have chosen ET or more correctly an
Early ET.  And I am wondering if you are asking them to choose
this early ET over a machine ET.    We cannot ignore the
possibility the 99.9% may simply  be turned off by the "cold
sterility" of a machine ET   and prefer a "warmer humanized"
version.  Much like drum machines have a feature that makes them
slightly less than exact, and thus more human rather than rigidly
mechanical.

    This whole discussion about various temperament is multi
faceted and in one corner is, "Can't really hear a difference when
listening to music or playing music in various temperaments".   I
am one who can't hear the difference, and have wondered if it is a
"condition" I am burdened with, like color blindness, or "tone
deaf", or if it is a gift of a lucky few, like perfect pitch, or
the ability to write a melody onto music staff and harmonize it
even without using a keyboard or musical instrument.

    I have tuned various "HT's" then tried  rudimentary pieces,
and after 3 minutes no longer conscious I was playing in some
thing else than ET.  Meantone and Pythagorean are exceptions, and
Pythagorean is amazing because you hear some pure 3rds. (yes it is
true, a succession of pure 5ths produces almost pure 3rds but that
is for another discussion)  Even with these extreme temperaments
the piano is playable for much of music that is two line melody
rather than lots of chords and harmony.

    So not being able to hear the difference of HT's, the first
time I tuned a Montal (ET), finally I can hear a difference, or at
least I think I can.  Now Ed is talking about people hearing the
difference between a Broadwood ET      and a modern ET. (machine
ET I assume).
Maybe we have to look into how the early attempts at ET sound, in
other words tune by their instructions or methods.

    Ellis says about Broadwood's best, "These were all tuned by
the modern way of Fifths up and Fourths down, and the object is to
make the Fifth up 2 cents too close, and the Fourth down 2 cents
to open. .  As this interval of 2 cents lies on the very boundary
of perception by ear, the difficulty of tuning thus without
attending to the beats is enormous.  The above figures [of three
tunings] shew how very close an approximation is now possible in
pianofortes.    (p 485)  Helmholtz, _Sensation of Tone___ Dover
Press.


>Once sensitized to the contrasts in
> a WT, it is amazing to them that they ever thought ET sounded
good.  >They often wonder, "How did I ever like that sound!"

But when you say 99.9% like the Broadwood you are saying they like
ET which in concept has nothing to do with WT.   On top of that,
there is little or no evidence to suggest WT had any influence in
music history.

>
>(which makes me REAL suspicious of those that would suggest
> the trade rapidly adopted ET in 1830!

"Mr James Broadwood in 1811 proposed it. [ET]..... gave a
practical method of producing equal temperament, 'from its being
in most general use, and because of the various systems it has
been pronounced the best deserving that appellation by Haydn,
Mozart and other masters of harmony'.... but the Hamburg organs
had equal temperament long before that time........"  Ellis in
Helmholtz  (p549)

I have the text of Broadwood's 1811 article if anyone is
interested.

---rm





ps....Below is a great class.   See you there......


>     I will be bringing the class "Temperaments for the 21st
Century" back at
> the Dallas convention.  It is listed as for all levels of tech,
and everybody
> is welcome to invest 90 minutes in giving  new perspectives a
shot.
> Regards,
>  Ed Foote RPT
> www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/
> www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
>