Hey Avery, It's because some technicians don't bother to voice often enough. I was asking myself the question, why would anyone let that happen to the hammers in the first place. I suppose it's the approach to business. As YOU know (since I taught that class in Houston years ago) my approach isn't just to tune a piano--a service call includes tuning and a bit of voicing and/or regulation. We're not talking about major stuff here, just keeping things sounding nice. There's no excuse when working on verticals, and it doesn't take much effort to even up the voicing in a grand if it's done often enough. My suggestion is to not be in such a hurry, take the time to do what needs to be done. If folks are only charging for tuning, they might change their rate to include some fix up time. I can't stress how many times I've followed other tuners because the customers were unhappy--the pianos were in tune, but needed things like mating hammers to the strings. Heck, I do that while I'm tuning. It's hard to set unisons with that blip going on. Barbara Richmond, RPT somewhere near Peoria, IL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Avery Todd" <avery@ev1.net> To: <davidlovepianos@earthlink.net>; "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:14 PM Subject: RE: Yamaha hammers > But my question is, why should it be necessary to stab a hammer 30-50 > times???????? > > Avery > > At 10:44 AM 11/6/03 -0800, you wrote: > >I certainly hope they will open with 30 - 50 jabs, I know I do. On the > >more serious side. I do use John James needles. Never thought about the > >hardness of a needle. What needle makers do you recommend, what size do > >you use, and where would you get them? > > > >David Love > >davidlovepianos@earthlink.net > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: Isaac sur Noos <oleg-i@noos.fr> > > > To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org> > > > Date: 11/6/2003 10:27:33 AM > > > Subject: RE: Yamaha hammers > > > > > > > > > Hi Andre, > > > > > > About the Japanese needles, I consider now my voicing tool like a > > > precision device, once loaded with your needles (no colateral damage, > > > not even in the fingers) > > > > > > Took me some time to appreciate them, because they are so sharp/thin > > > and I usually break when beginning to be less concentrated (or smiling > > > at the passing bird ...) > > > > > > It is indeed good to know by advance that the needles will go there > > > exactly where you want to - less sharp needles tend to rebound on > > > dense felt, and we tend to be too much forceful then (and they break) > > > Soft needles (John James) I don't know how to use, nor why they are > > > used. > > > > > > Yamaha C series I have used recently where all but stone hard, and > > > they open very neately with 30/50 jabs. > > > > > > Till, a friend explain me he likes (for new hammers) to begin slowly > > > deep needle in the base of the hammers (just above the impregnated > > > part but in direction of the end of the fiber) , so to have a more > > > confident (mean denser ) material to work with when building "the > > > cushion" (TM) > > > > > > I may say I should be inclined to do that if I don't feel enough the > > > fiber reaction while doing the first needling - I understand you > > > instruct to leave that "battery needling" for later correction of > > > underpowered notes, but I've find that too much needling the shoulders > > > when looking for elasticity can easely tend to a bad deformation near > > > the crown. > > > > > > Can't the process of giving that supplement of density first give a > > > better control when building the cushion ? Or is a good voicer able to > > > get the most of a decent new hammer head without resorting to it . > > > > > > As it have been noticed, modern hammers have often not a lot of > > > internal tension at first. I believe the tension is there under the > > > form of felt compression. The deep needling conducted, releasing more > > > (denser) material in the middle of the hammer, creates that tension up > > > to some point. > > > > > > The fact that Wurzen felt is yet toning well without a lot of this > > > tension is of course appreciated. It is also a big advantage in humid > > > climates, as more inert fiber became totally mushy sounding when > > > Wurzen continue to sound nice. But on the other hand, the rebound on > > > the string being slower, some kind of tone are not allowed until the > > > hammer have packed down under use, I mean a few years may be. > > > > > > The Steinway techs I know have been very surprized by the change in > > > felt when it occurs, when treated properly the older kind felt seem to > > > be reactivated a lot of time, and allow more easely the superpower > > > that is sometime needed by these instruments) > > > > > > They where expecting Wurzen to hold less long, time seem to prove the > > > contrary, but they learned to needle less also I guess. > > > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > > > Voicing, the most important subject on earth after regulation and CO2. > > > > > > > > > Friendly Greetings > > > > > > > > > Isaac OLEG > > > > > > > > > > The CFIII-S has Wurzen felt, which makes all the difference in tone > > > > building from the start. > > > > > > > > btw, we sell Japanese needles that only break if you have > > > > no experience > > > > with voicing. > > > > > > > > > > > > On donderdag, nov 6, 2003, at 17:28 Europe/Amsterdam, > > > > cswearingen@daigger.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a few months ago, I applied an alcohol/water solution to my > > > > > Yamaha U1 > > > > > hammers because I had the same problem - couldn't get > > > > even a single > > > > > needle > > > > > to penetrate the hammers - they just kept breaking off. > > > > My U1 is only > > > > > about 5 years old but the hammers were like concrete. > > > > > > > > > > My intention was to soften up the hammers so I could > > > > needle them but > > > > > after > > > > > applying the solution, the bright/harsh tone was > > > > drastically brought > > > > > down > > > > > and so I decided not to needle them. I would assume that > > > > the needles > > > > > would > > > > > be easier to insert once the hammers have been soaked with this > > > > > alcohol/water solution (and allowed to dry overnight). > > > > > > > > > > Before I did this, I was constantly playing with the soft > > > > pedal trying > > > > > to > > > > > coax a softer/warmer sound from the instrument. I really > > > > love the tone > > > > > change after using the solution. Be careful however as > > > > it will bring a > > > > > drastic change. You will be able to play softer and get > > > > a much warmer > > > > > tone > > > > > but it will be at the expense of being able to get a ff > > > > or triple ff > > > > > out of > > > > > the instrument. For me, personally, it was a trade-off > > > > that was worth > > > > > it. > > > > > It's been about 6-8 weeks since I did this and the tone > > > > has brightened > > > > > up a > > > > > bit but it still has a much warmer pleasing tone than > > > > before. I should > > > > > mention that after I soaked the hammers and they dried, I > > > > shaped the > > > > > hammers, fine strip-sanded them with 300 grit emory > > > > cloth, and finally > > > > > ironed the hammers to a very smooth polish. > > > > > > > > > > There is also someone on this list that recommends steaming the > > > > > hammers. > > > > > Seems to me that this would have similar effect in that > > > > it expands the > > > > > fibers within the hammer. The only reason I didn't try > > > > steaming was > > > > > that, > > > > > for me, it was much easier to simply use the > > > > alcohol/water solution > > > > > from a > > > > > eye-dropper. > > > > > > > > > > Corte Swearingen > > > > > Chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Erwinspiano@aol.c > > > > > om To: > > > > > pianotech@ptg.org > > > > > Sent by: cc: > > > > > pianotech-bounces Subject: > > > > Re: Yamaha > > > > > hammers > > > > > @ptg.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11/06/2003 09:42 > > > > > AM > > > > > Please respond to > > > > > Pianotech > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/6/2003 6:04:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > > > > A440A@aol.com writes: > > > > >> The hammers are so hard that if you begin at the upper > > > > shoulder, the > > > > >> tension in them will tear them apart after a while. > > > > >> Regards, > > > > >> Ed Foote RPT > > > > > Hi Ed > > > > > And Yamaha builds these hammers this way > > > > because...............? > > > > > For all my debt of professional gratitude due Yamaha & > > > > for all there > > > > > ingenius wonderful pianos I can't figure this & have > > > > never heard an > > > > > explanation. Soundboard that vibrate freely DO NOT > > > > require hammers O > > > > > stone. > > > > > Still don't get it in Modesto.--Dale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
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