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Hello Isaac
Thanks for your reply, the most interesting part of which was in the =
final para: "BTW, my favourite first octave test (temperament) is to =
have the 3 major thirds (FA - AC# - C#F) sounding together.." Actually =
Isaac, this is the very basis of my so called "Quadrant System" both in =
tuning and its utilisation in raising the pitch of a piano. And it =
sounds nice too! I have never (in memory) used a 17th. interval at the =
top end of the piano, only 15ths. I can stretch to play and tune while =
holding down 10ths. Very useful - but that's in the Bass where the beats =
are more prominent for that interval. Nothing much can be done with the =
very bottom 8ve. the notes seem reluctant to produce beats with any =
interval.I only use the TLA for the middle twelve notes (checking as =
soon as possible with M3) Having laid the bearings I then play the =
bearings chromatically in M3 and listen to the smoothe change in =
beat-rate. I go throught the whole tuning process going down in M3, =
4ths, 5ths, 8ves and 10ths. And up to the top using 4ths, 5ths, 8ves and =
15ths. I start using the 15ths right at the outset. It's a pretty rapid =
system. I find that this works wonderfully in Harpsichords - it very =
quickly discloses the maverick tunings!
I agree with the lively colouration of a modified equal temperament...!! =
Dare I call it that? That the tone dies away sooner is, I think, due to =
lack of sympathetic harmonics. String players love to hear the pure 4ths =
and 5ths .... and so we go full circle and realise we are, at best, =
making a compromise in any setting of the scale! I am sure M.Pythagoras =
went through all this mental anguish when he discovered (in sand) his =
wretched interval. The bane of our lives and reason for our existance!
Regards
Michael G (UK)
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Isaac sur Noos=20
To: Pianotech=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 6:00 AM
Subject: RE: "The Invisible Tool"/beat rates - and where they come from
Michiel,
I see what you mean ,I have computed all beat rates for 3 octaves and =
all intervals once, and I remeber using a little metronome to learn to =
count beats (just insist, and you'll know how to tune someday :>)!
As understand it you tune by fast intervals mostly. Indeed one can train =
to get a good interval color for the fast beatings, and get a feel for =
it .One can even consider the fast beating as if they where octaves or =
fiths, and tune unissons while correcting their speed. I've done it but =
have find it to be too tiring for the ears. (But I remember a Balwin =
spinet, the only one I tuned I guess, and it was easier to tune without =
any muting, mutes gave a so unfocused tone that it was an horror to try =
to hear beats, while they appear more clearly in the full garbage ;>)
But as the 10th and 17th beat rate progression slow on most pianos in =
the treble, if we follow the inharmonicity of the instrument.
If we follow beat rate progression , the treble scream a bit , (is an =
advantage for some situation).
I use the 17 th's in the treble but mostly if I am lost with a high =
treble note, to check my double octave.
And I use to check the progression of course, but is enough to tune by =
octave (the worst interval for tuning !) to me .
Nowadays any focused tuning is musical, for instance a fourth based, =
even a fiths based tuning,=20
Just that some tunings are more in the iH of the piano and others more =
in the mood of the tuner.!
I mean that even a pure ffith tuning does not sound false to the player, =
while the octaves beat as hell, but when chords are leaved sustaining, =
the more the tuning respect the piano Iharmonicity, the more sustain you =
get, and in Western harmony you have more immediate tone in harmony =
because of the reinforcement of the partials.=20
Indeed Il like the lively coloration of a little untempered tuning when =
large chords are sustained (leaved sounding), you have more move and =
partial rubbing, that gives a "singing" quality, but the tone extinct =
sooner I have seen (why ?). The tunings computed by the VT, when you =
hold the sustain pedal with a large chord, the tone does not seem to =
want to end.=20
Then my I deduction is that there is a more lively tone in this =
situation, while I understand it is difficult to ascertain for sure !
BTW, my favourite first octave test (temperament) is to have the 3 major =
thirds (FA - A C# - C#F) sounding together, no third may be heard more =
than others, thats a neat test !
My best to you all !
Isaac OLEG
Best
Isaac OLEG
Entretien et r=E9paration de pianos.
PianoTech
17 rue de Choisy
94400 VITRY sur SEINE
FRANCE
tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98
fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90
cell: 06 60 42 58 77=20
-----Message d'origine-----
De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la =
part de Michael Gamble
Envoy=E9 : mardi 21 octobre 2003 01:23
=C0 : pianotech@ptg.org
Objet : Fw: "The Invisible Tool"/beat rates - and where they come from
Hello Isaac
(while being near) you said. In this I am very happy. At least the =
concept even if not completely accurate, gives a working knowledge of =
the system. :-)
You'll notice I extracted a bit from your message and stuck it on my =
reply - I'm finding out how these new fangled computer thingys work.
Kindest regards
Michael G (UK across the Chanel) <- ;-)
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Isaac sur Noos=20
To: Pianotech=20
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:02 PM
Subject: RE: "The Invisible Tool"/beat rates - and where they come =
from
Michael,
out of any computation, the most universal admitted ratio that works =
in the piano is the 4/5 ratio for 2 contigous major thirds.
All these beat rates computed, does not have to do much with the beat =
rates in the piano=20
On some pianos the FA major 3d is as fast as 7.3 and on others it =
can't be even 6.8 bps.
Regards
Isaac OLEG
Entretien et r=E9paration de pianos.
PianoTech
17 rue de Choisy
94400 VITRY sur SEINE
FRANCE
tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98
fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90
cell: 06 60 42 58 77=20
-----Message d'origine-----
De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De =
la part de Michael Gamble
Envoy=E9 : lundi 20 octobre 2003 17:27
=C0 : pianotech@ptg.org
Objet : "The Invisible Tool"/beat rates - and where they come from
Hello list
Like all of you, I imagine, I was first made aware of these beats =
when listening to a piano (in my case pipe organ) being tuned. My =
curiosity led me to analyse the reason and I turned to simple =
mathematics for the answer. Enter my "small equation" where the =
fundamental (1st.Harm.) is multiplied by the 12th. root of 2 to derive =
the next fundamental in the ascending equal tempered chromatic scale. =
(Simply devide if you want to go down chromatically). In every case the =
resultant becomes a Fundamental Note - or 1st.Harmonic. I know this is =
all "old hat" but there's probably some meat in it to be chewed over =
just the same. Now taking the Fundamental and multiplying by "Two" one =
gets the second harmonic. Multiplying by "Three" gets the third harmonic =
ad. inf. The really interesting point now comes... Take your M10 based =
on A# (which computes at 466.16376.....)The 5th. harmonic of that A# =3D =
2796.9826...... the M10 is F(which computes at 1396.9129.......) The =
2nd. harmonic of that F =3D2793.8259...... =
There we have a difference of 3.1567..... Hz which is the beat you hear. =
The same applies, of course, to any and all intervals in the equal =
tempered scale, be they M3,M4,M5 - whatever.
It is interesting to apply that "small formula" to log all the notes =
of the equal tempered scale on a mathematical basis and thereby to =
extract the "Beat-rate" information whole-sale. To me this information =
is "an invisible tool" - and I use it - as do you. But it's nice to see =
an invisible friend sometimes!=20
Of course! There are many pitfalls! Many pianos do not produce the =
exact mathematical frequencies according to my table. Those times when =
the first covered (wrapped) Bass string are played with their M10 - and =
the beat rate does not conform to the mathematical progression of the =
tables as produced in the "metals" section of the piano. Well..., That's =
life :-) I find the "scientific calculator on the PC best as it =
produces so many decimal places! In using such a calculator you can go =
right up the scale and land up, an 8ve later with exactly twice the =
number you started out with. Now that's Magic!=20
Regards
Michael G (UK)
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