Horace,
I, too, welcome parts that should prove to be stable in time, need
less papering, weight the same, can be repaired or changed as easely.
At this day , while on moderately used instruments the problems are
not so apparent, on heavily used ones it seem they experiment problems
that are reforming the instrument too early.
I was on the opinion that Kawai pianos where lasting more than others
in the same price range guess it was with precedent versions of their
actions.
And yes I experiment the "thump" of the damper lever on the key end
felt as something less agreable that the wooden noise of traditional
dampers.
Yes it is difficult to make an opinion, particularely when so much
plastic is sold to us everyday as the best material for everything !
I love wood.
Best Regards.
Isaac OLEG
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org
> [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la
> part de Horace Greeley
> Envoyé : dimanche 15 février 2004 01:22
> À : Pianotech
> Objet : RE: ABS Parts and Objectivity of Posting
>
>
>
> Don, Isaac, et al,
>
> These things are always difficult.
>
> I suspect that there are a number of technicians (myself
> included) whose
> experience with ABS supports your positions.
>
> I would even go a bit further. Given the decreasing
> availability of decent
> wood, I welcome the use of other materials in places where
> they may be
> substituted - thus, hopefully, reserving the wood for those
> things for
> which there are not (yet) suitable replacements.
> Certainly, action parts
> fall into this category. In terms of suitability and
> serviceability, ABS
> is no more (and, arguably, less) problematic than wood for
> action parts.
>
> Manufacturers are going to do what they feel is best for
> their product and
> profitability. Sometimes we agree with them. Sometimes we
> do not. Can we
> get around sufficiently around our prejudices so that we
> can work to make
> each individual instrument the best that it can be, without
> regard to
> manufacturer? In other words, overall the issue is, are we
> technicians,
> or, are we new parts installers? If the former, then our
> course is clear.
> If the latter, then we will always only be just that.
>
> But, then, I still like teflon bushings...
>
> Best.
>
> Horace
>
>
> Quoting Donald Mannino <donmannino@comcast.net>:
>
> >
> >
> > Isaac,
> >
> >
> > You are entitled to your opinions, but really, what you
> state is really
> > a
> > lot of crazy talk. Perhaps this is partially caused by
> your having
> > to post to this list in your second language - it is
> understandable that
> > your writing would not be as clear and carefully phrased
> as it should
> > be.
> >
> >
> > Those who have been to my seminars know that I do not hold back in
> > criticizing Kawai pianos in those areas where I am aware
> of faults.
> > If I knew of the problems you have described, I would not
> bother to
> > write
> > and argue against them - that is not my way, and I value
> my personal
> > integrity too much to do so.
> >
> >
> > That said, the problems you have described regarding
> bushings and ABS
> > parts having sharp edges do not make sense, and in my 8 years as
> > technical support manager for Kawai in North America not
> once have I
> > ever
> > heard of or experienced myself any sharp edges or burrs on ABS
> > repetition
> > levers. These are the kinds of non-factually based
> criticisms that
> > usually come from those who work with competing
> dealerships, or for one
> > reason or another are predisposed to dislike this brand of
> > pianos.
> >
> >
> > I have observed that Isaac continually brings up ABS in
> discussions
> > which
> > are not related to the topic. It would seem that this is
> an effort
> > on his part to:
> >
> > a. Discredit Kawai in general
> >
> > b. Draw me into an argument
> >
> > c. Tout his technical superiority over the rest of the world's
> > technicians
> >
> >
> > The original topic of the thread was about Kawai's new
> adjustable touch
> > action in upright pianos, and Isaac launches into an epistle of
> > diatribes
> > against Kawai. He never gives indication with his
> signature stating
> > why he might be biased against Kawai, but the content is very
> > consistent. Why is this?
> >
> >
> > In reading many of Isaac's posts, letter C (above) seems
> to be the most
> > common goal, and as such I usually don't feel the posts are worth
> > responding to. In this case, letter A seems to be more
> the purpose,
> > so I felt I should respond.
> >
> >
> > With this preamble completed, I would like to comment
> specifically on of
> > Isaac's Kawai-bashing statements:
> >
> >
> > "defects due to the
> > molding process leaving sharp edges at the roller window"
> >
> >
> > Wood parts regularly have milling defects at the jack
> > window. On brand new Renner and Steinway parts I have
> had to scrape
> > this edge with a razor knife (a much better solution than
> sanding, by
> > the
> > way) to eliminate artifacts of the milling process. I have never,
> > in the literally tens of thousands of ABS parts I have
> worked on, seen
> > any burrs or sharp edges here. If Isaac really did find some kind
> > of molding artifact in a repetition lever, this would be
> a very rare and
> > surprising item - it should be treated as a fluke,
> repaired, and not
> > turned into an argument against ABS parts.
> >
> >
> > "I stand my point
> > that Kawai never understood piano touch enough they have
> always been a
> > tad unresponsive that is frustrating for players and techs as the
> > instruments could be more musical if so."
> >
> >
> > For one who apparently has no knowledge of the Kawai
> > R&D department, and seems to not be aware of the very common
> > selection of Kawai pianos by competitors at piano
> competitions, this
> > statement of Isaac's shows only ignorance. Isaac, have
> you ever met
> > one of Kawai's concert technicians who supposedly (in
> your terms) do not
> > understand piano touch? These are the people who finish
> off the EX
> > concert grands and the Shigeru Kawai pianos. Every one of
> > them spent 2 years in Europe during their training, and I am very
> > confident that their résumés would embarrass most piano
> tuners in the
> > world. They work intimately with the highest caliber of
> pianists and
> > with
> > Kawai's rather extensive R&D department, and to say that Kawai
> > doesn't understand proper piano touch really is a
> personal insult to
> > these very fine technicians.
> >
> >
> > As to the results of Kawai's labors, we regularly survey
> buyers and
> > potential buyers of the Shigeru Kawai pianos, and the
> following are the
> > most common types of comments about these pianos:
> >
> > "Wonderful singing tone, very expressive"
> >
> > "Incredibly sensitive action, it will do anything I ask of
> > it."
> >
> > Now I know that these kinds of solicited comments are not
> to be taken
> > overly seriously, but my point is that we do not get
> complaints that the
> > Shigeru Kawai actions are unresponsive.
> >
> >
> > "as soon as you
> > install better front punching"
> >
> >
> > Here you are throwing another arcane and unclear
> > criticism in without being concise. Kawai knows exactly
> what it is
> > doing with the front punching firmness - as a classical
> pianist myself,
> > I
> > very strongly dislike the feeling of overly hard front punchings.
> > Here you are simply stating a personal preference as a fact of
> > inferiority. If you do not like Kawai's punching
> hardness, can you
> > conceive of the concept that others do like them? Even
> > others of excellent ability, skill and knowledge?
> >
> >
> > Here, I will restate this in your style of writing: Hard
> front rail
> > punchings are a definite sign of inferiority in the piano
> and should be
> > changed to a higher quality, more forgiving cloth. The thumpy,
> > unforgiving end to the keystroke makes the piano tone percussive,
> > weakens
> > projection, and damages the tendons of the pianist over time. Any
> > technician who prefers hard punchings needs to change
> careers, as he or
> > she is obviously not sensitive to musicality in the instrument.
> >
> >
> > {To all other readers besides our Gallic fiend please
> note - the above
> > paragraph was parody, not my actual opinion! ;-) }
> >
> >
> > "It can be a psychological
> > impression, but as yet those action with aluminum rails
> have something
> > in
> > the tone I don't like the most"
> >
> >
> > I can unequivocally confirm to you, this is a
> > psychological problem. The Kawai rail has been extremely well
> > researched and designed, with a combination of very
> strong vertical
> > beams, serrated surface with rubber strip to assist with
> stable part
> > spacing and alignment, and a wood letoff button rail inserted
> > underneath.
> >
> >
> > I can tell you, though, there are some definite
> 'advantages' of a wood
> > rail over Kawai's aluminum rail:
> >
> > 1. Much more energy is lost in fortissimo playing with
> wood rails due to
> > flex and vibration, especially in the bass area. This has the
> > benefit of keeping the piano from being too loud, and
> keeps some of the
> > pianist's energy from making loud noises and offending any nearby
> > listeners.
> >
> > 2. When the wood vibrates in reaction to the hammer
> striking the string,
> > there is a pleasing "knock" added to the tone of the
> > piano.
> >
> > 3. Action parts to not stay screwed down tight nearly as
> long in wood
> > rails. This provides the piano technicians with a stable source
> > of income.
> >
> > 4. Sandpaper on top of the wood rail enhances the quality of tone,
> > giving
> > it that gritty, papery quality we all love. Any technician who
> > cannot hear this is most assuredly in the wrong business - it is
> > obvious!
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> > "I am unsure it is really the case, Kawai is not synonym of very
> > good cloth and felts to
> >
> > me, for some reason (see the Boston hammers)"
> >
> >
> > And you should remain unsure, dear fiend, as this is
> another bunch of
> > nonsense.
> >
> >
> > Let me first say that Boston pianos are made to Steinway
> Specifications,
> > and any criticisms of those instruments should be aimed at
> > Steinway. If Steinway wanted the factory in Japan to change the
> > hammer felts, then Kawai would do so.
> >
> >
> > There is no company making pianos today who does not
> occasionally have a
> > piano needing service to the action centers, Kawai
> included. Making
> > reliable, firm action centers is one of the most
> difficult parts of
> > piano
> > making. The parts must work in tropical climates as well
> as arctic
> > ones, and the manufacturer must try to fit the pins in
> the bushing for
> > the widest level of reliability. This means that the
> tone under dry
> > conditions will not be ideal, as the pins will be on the
> edge of being
> > too loose. This need to fit the action centers for reliable
> > operation in all climates is not a reflection of cloth
> quality or the
> > surrounding material, as the requirement holds just as
> true for Kawai
> > grand hammer shanks (wood material) as it does for our
> wippen flanges
> > (ABS). In other words, the behavior of the different
> action centers
> > within the exact same piano in the exact same conditions
> with the same
> > cloth and different surrounding materials (wood vs ABS)
> is essentially
> > the same. There is no better evidence than this of the fallacy of
> > this old argument regarding wood parts giving a better
> fit with the
> > bushing and pin.
> >
> >
> > I would encourage everyone to take note of Yamaha's grand hammer
> > flanges,
> > in which they apply a cross lamination to the wood were
> the bushings are
> > glued in. Guess what? This stabilizes the wood, reducing the
> > potential for the hole to change shape from humidity
> changes. Kind
> > of like plastic, hmm?
> >
> >
> > I should say that I am also guilty of this same argument in the
> > past. I once stated in my seminar on action centers that the wood
> > parts must give a more consistent fit, but after testing the idea
> > carefully and actually working with direct comparisons of
> wood and ABS
> > parts, I found that I was wrong. Perhaps Isaac will someday learn
> > his error as well.
> >
> >
> > "(and I really hear the plastic
> > "thump" of the damper levers as something not in its place in a
> > piano)."
> >
> >
> > It is amazing to me how a lack of understanding makes
> > people say such wrong things. If we made an ABS soundboard,
> > everyone would rightly criticize it for being dead, not making any
> > tone. ABS is a very inert, quiet material which dissipates
> > vibrational energy. It cannot possibly add to the thump of the
> > dampers! But inexperienced people hear a noise in a piano, and
> > instead of investigating the cause of the noise they see
> the ABS and say
> > - "Ah, that's it - cheap plastic" or something
> > similar.
> >
> >
> > I used to keep track of the number of 'tooners' who would
> call me at
> > Kawai and say something like "This action is clicking
> because of the
> > plastic parts - you know, Steinway had this same problem
> with plastic
> > (Teflon) bushings and they stopped making them!" When I heard
> > this I would add another hatch mark to a certain notebook
> cover, and
> > patiently explain yet again that these actions have normal cloth
> > bushings
> > of a very high quality, and the technician might want to
> check again for
> > the source of the noise. Usually we end up having to send another
> > technician out, and it is never in the bushings or the ABS - the
> > most common cause would be that the hammer heads had come
> loose on the
> > shanks because of dryness. The original technician gets the piano
> > owner upset over nothing, and in the end looks like a jackass to
> > all.
> >
> >
> > "I also noticed it can be noisy
> > , may be the rollers are artificial leather also (most
> probably) as for
> > Yamaha, and that makes too much synthetic on synthetic
> contact paths ?
> > Yamaha rollers and backchecks are very good for one - and
> they are not
> > leather so not all synthetic parts are equal."
> >
> >
> > Yamaha and Kawai (and some other piano makers) buy
> > the artificial buckskin from the same supplier in Japan. The
> > advantages are that it has much better cushioning to reduce action
> > noise,
> > and it is very, very consistent in thickness, firmness, and
> > elasticity. Very fine buckskin is more resistant to squeaking
> > noises, but otherwise has a lot of drawbacks. This
> comment that it
> > doesn't happen in Yamaha pianos may mean that some kind
> of Yamaha angels
> > have prevented Isaac from experiencing it, but I have
> personally had to
> > apply Teflon powder to Yamaha knuckles (as well as Young Chang and
> > others) to stop the same noise. I recently serviced a very nice
> > Hamburg Steinway B which was squeaking and groaning very badly
> > here. No matter what the materials, knuckles (rollers)
> > can squeak, and Teflon powder usually solves it.
> >
> >
> > By the way, a very common source of squeaks in any
> knuckle material is
> > human skin oil, from people rubbing them with their fingers.
> >
> >
> >
> > As to the allusion that ABS wippens are a little too
> heavy, this is a
> > valid criticism - although one which produced complaints almost
> > exclusively from dealers who sell competing products.
> Although the
> > Kawai action was engineered to perform well with this
> slight extra mass
> > in the wippen, Kawai is just now introducing a new carbon
> strengthened
> > ABS action, which allows us to bring the mass in the
> wippen assembly
> > down. This new action is going to make a bit of a stir
> in the piano
> > market, I think.
> >
> >
> > There is nothing anyone can do to stop someone from
> posting all sorts of
> > nonsensical opinions on this mail list. I generally
> don't respond -
> > I have learned that it doesn't pay to roll in the mud
> with pigs, because
> > they like it too much! In this case I have tried to at least slop
> > out the pig sty a little, but am now going to depart for a quick
> > shower.
> >
> >
> > Don Mannino RPT
> >
> > Kawai America
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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