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Hello Dale,
Congratulations on the reception received for your piano there in
Sacramento. I hope sometime I may be able to hear it myself. I am not
the least bit surprised to hear that your piano has had such a wonderful
reception. I have just now waded through three or four hundred emails
but want to make a few comments interposed below. Some will be about
your piano and some regarding Ron O's frustrated post. I certainly
hope, if he is reading this, that he will reconsider any departure as he
is a most valuable contributor to this list, along with the other
members of the group of "redesigners'. Still, this does smack
somewhat, at least, as far as I can see, of "see it my way or I am
going to take my marbles and go home." I think we all have this
impulse when deeply held beliefs are challenged, which is perfectly
natural, but we should try to overcome such as it is really, in the
contention of ideas and examination of the possibilities that rapid
progress may well lie.
Erwinspiano@aol.com wrote:
> David wrote
>
> I think there are those who when put to a rebuilding request by a
> customer need to try and recreate a "Steinway sound" but might wish to
> employ what has been represented as a more reliable method than
> CC. But
> if the RC&S method produces its own unique characteristics and is, as
> you say, something which certainly didn't sound like a Steinway,
> then it
> would be good to know whether those differences are inherent in the
> differences between the two methods or simply a matter of
> customizing a
> particular design.
>
> Hi Dave
> >> I've been following this thread in my post convention fatigue.
> I'd like to speak to this. I build rib crowned boards with some
> panel compression support as well. These typically have slightly
> taller ribs & less wide than the original.
> I also have some compression in the panel. I typically dry to no
> less than 5.5% emc & no more than 6%.
> I like this range for the results I'm getting & regional climate
> conditions. It's not excessive by any means . I believe for my ears I
> like the sounds of designs that retain some compression. I Use sitka
> spruce panels, which Steinway does & some diaphramizing which they
> also do. The panels are similar in thickness but on the thinner side.
> I press in a dished caul as they do. I use the same scales with minor
> alterations. & Yes I like the tri-chord sound in Ds.
> I use primarily white Spruce ribs on the bottom and sometimes some
> Sitka in the top treble(s) ie. Bs & Ds. Which they Don't. I no longer
> use sugar pine except in some instances or in smaller pianos. Which
> they still do in ALL models. I can hear the difference between a board
> ribbed with sugar pine & one with spruce.
> I market what I call a "variable radius soundboard" crown which
> means the ribs are cut with increasingly steeper radius going into the
> treble & many folks on this list & off do this. Most of this is not
> news & many use this.
> My point is that all our bellied pianos sound to me like some of
> the best Steinways I've heard even though they are built in this non
> traditional way. I have fewer Killer octave problems & better balance
> of registers or as good as the very best C.C. design at least . This
> point is the same as what others are saying ,The methods are most
> reliable & predictable.
> My point is,finally. To me These pianos aren't some derivation of
> the Steinway sound but the best qualities of the Steinway sound. Great
> sustain,even thru the breaks & treble areas, rich tone color, & power
> which isn't driven to distortion & FFF levels.
This is very nice to hear and, personally, judging from your comments
made over the years regarding sound I have always had the expectation
that your pianos would sound great and am not at all surprised to see
such results obtained as I said above. I have similar, although
perhaps slightly differing, expectations for the others in the
redesigner crowd, some contributing here regularly and some not.
However, generally it has not been you urging the view that
anything but the latest creation of some design methodology was the only
acceptable result out there, but such a view has been urged carrying
with it the not too subtle, insidious, implication that people elsewhere
were poor, deceived fools, for liking what they like. Some have, and at
one time this list blatantly operated this way which was most
unfortunate, in my opinion. I am well aware of the sacrifice of time,
hence money and the draining emotional strain involved in moving
contrarily to established norms, for example, the Steinway or Yamaha
juggernaut, and respect this, and, also, very much the efforts, as I
have always said, of those trying to produce pianos differing in various
ways.
Why would they try to produce anything but the best product they could
achieve given the circumstances? All know this must be the case. Yet
with any contrary view one is always disheartened by what seems to be a
kind of badgering and supercilious dismissal of any other perspective
on the part of some of this group, not necessarily you, especially when
this seems to be associated with events which, in one's own experience,
are different, for example the public appreciation for Steinway, whether
warranted or not, which has just been the immediate source of another
dustup here on the list.
I find it pointless to argue back and forth on some dispute,
especially, as I once tried on a certain set of principles, at the cost
of a considerable waste of time and productive energy, as it is not
likely any minds will be changed here. As I have said before, here are
only words and the experience of hearing or playing a particular
instrument is likely to be the only way that individual minds will
undergo suasion one way or the other. So, congratulations again, on
your results.
Even though he has been upbraided by a number of posters for what
some would call such bantering, I think Richard Brekne makes a valid
point. It does take two to tango. One can't, or at least shouldn't,
dismiss away relevant facts, even if inconvenient and the status of
Steinway is by no means simply the result only of marketing PR.
Many times I disagree with the bases of some claims made by some of
the redesigner crowd: in my opinion, they could proceed possibly more
expediously if they would get, for example, some of the underlying
physics and history straight, at least from my point of view, and from
that of, perhaps, others. Still I certainly respect the efforts that
come from this school of thought wholeheartedly. The latest discussion
on simple wave theory, to take but one instance, is another, among the
many, examples of the facts of some of the most elemental, fundamental
aspects of physics seemingly disregarded, misunderstood, or, unknown.
How can it be expected then to be otherwise than that substantial
contention would then flow from such types of things?
I live in an area and, a city particularly, overrun by trembling,
vaunting culture snobs who buy their "culture" in the "Cultural
District", who are frequent attendees at the very numerous musical
concerts and who are completely taken in by the Steinway mystique.
Here, as elsewhere, at concerts in most venues, they listen frequently
to instruments at the same time both clangy, dull and uneven, no doubt
inferior to the same instrument had it employed even the simple remedy
of using a merely adequate hammer, and stumble over themselves to scream
and applaud after each recital. Yet, underneath these defects,
especially from seats in the hall, there is still a great sound, or at
least musically acceptable one, although certainly capable of much
improvement in my mind. I think Richards point was that it is this, as
well as the PR hype, they respond to and to deny this, in my mind, is to
miscontrue the obvious.
Nevertheless, to chronically lay at the feet of the substantial
marketing bull and PR machine of this company the onus of impeding the
development of the industry, and attributing "stagnation" to it, is not
factual, in my opinion. If anything, it should be attributed to the
ignorance and superficiality of the consumer. However, they may just
like the sound, as do I on most of these intruments. This is not to say
it cannot be better. I have no doubt it could and, indeed, has been.
> I have no problem or difficulty selling my clients on these modern
> features. When they hear it they get it. NO client has ever said no I
> don't want you to do that & none ever said it didn't sound like a
> Steinway.
> Ask any one who heard My D (at the PTG Cal State) last weekend if
> they heard a Steinway Sound. Or the Concert artist who performed
> Gershwin ,who stopped before the finale of Rhapsody in blue To State
> what an Amazing piano this was & because of it he was performing his
> uncut version. It was a great experience for me personally & I was
> gratified to have many enthusiastic words of support from some other
> rebuilders, Technicians & friends.
> I thank them all with mutual respect & support
> Dale Erwin
Once again, I want to say how I appreciate these kinds of posts, coming,
as I said once before, from the voice of experience and giving us the
benefit of it, as does Ron O, with his very insightful posts on a
generality of subjects and, particularly, the wonderfully innovative,
I-rib soundboard he has produced. Similar kudos to Ron N, Dell
Fandrich and Terry Falwell for their efforts but we (meaning the
non-redesigner crowd) still have to reserve the right to express our own
opinions, even if arising from different experiences and perspectives.
Regards, Robin Hufford
think Sarah pointed out what might be some
> considerations in those differences. I can't address those issues
> with
> any real knowledge as I am not an engineer and lack adequate
> experience.
> But I can hear differences between different types of pianos and I am
> interested in exploring the topic further even if it is only in a
> speculative manner.
>
> David Love
> davidlovepianos@comcast.net
>
>
>
> Erwins Pianos Restorations
> 4721 Parker Rd.
> Modesto, Ca 95357
> 209-577-8397
> Rebuilt Steinway , Mason &Hamlin Sales
> www.Erwinspiano.com
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