---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Philippe, Are you just learning to tune? If so, my advice is to FIRST just learn to tune a good temperament with nicely progressing beat rates on the 3rds & 6ths. Don't worry about a stretched temperament (whatever that is)! Then worry about stretch as you go out from the temperament! JMHO! It worked for me for 25+ yrs. :-) Even before I started using an ETD. Avery At 10:37 AM 2/12/2006, you wrote: >Thank you Andrew, for your answer. > >I had read much before asking the question... I understood the >theory, but I wanted to know in what measure it was something very >strict or if sometimes piano were tuned as if being a "theoretical >piano", just for an example to match them with other instrument not >needing stretched tuning... So my question was more about usages or >fashions than technical... > > From your explanation, and from another that came directly on my > e-mail, I understand that there are no exceptions to stretching... > ok, In fact I knew the problem of tuning very different pianos... > but then my question is "how is it usually solved ?", especially > when a piano plays with an orchestre. > >And about temperament, are there also temperaments more commonly >used ? amongst tuners ? and amongst clients ? > >Philippe >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:anrebe@sbcglobal.net>Andrew and Rebeca Anderson >To: <mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>Pianotech List >Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:53 PM >Subject: Re: temperaments - choosing ? stretched ? not stretched ? > >Phillippe, >I am not sure what you mean by a "stretched temperament." Tuning is >stretched on a piano because of inharmonicity caused by the >stiffness of piano wire. When the wire subdivides vibrations after >being struck by the hammer it does so losing a little length with >each subdivision because the wire is stiff. The higher the partial, >the more length is lost and the sharper the coincident tone. When >tuning a piano aurally, stretch occurs naturally as you match those >partials. You hear the tone blossom or open up, if you will, as you >come into coincidence. Where you place it in that narrow zone is a >matter of taste--narrow, middle or wide. > >Because different pianos are scaled (choice of wire size) >differently, no one recording of reference tones will work >throughout the compass. Sometimes manufacturers will "refine" their >scaling in a given model more than once in a year and the same model >of piano will actually have a different scale. The result of >different scales is different tuning sometimes obvious at the >extreme ends of the compass. The pianos will not harmonize to a >greater or lessor degree. Actually, a lot of scaling refinement >happens at the break from the long bridge to the bass bridge and the >break from wound strings to unwound strings. > >An example of how scaling differences can show up in real life >happened at a university where my wife worked as a pianist. They >had a NY Steinway D and a Bosendorfer concert grand. For a concert >they chose to have four-hand, two piano accompaniment of the mass >choir. I was attending the concert and during an intermission the >choral director approached me and asked/complained why their tuner >couldn't get the pianos in tune with each other. Knowing the person >in question was a fine, pre-eminent technician, I knew the problem >wasn't the tuning and asked about the pianos. I explained how >different piano makers would scale their instruments differently >pursuing different philosophies of sound and that in order for a >piano to be "in-tune" the resulting scales must be tuned >differently. The only perfectly harmonious note she could count on >would be A4, middle A. (Even then such different pianos would >respond to climate differently and go out of tune >differently.) Steinway with its low tension scale and Bosendorfer >with its high tension scale were destined to clash. Those >piano-makers have very different goals they accomplish with their >instruments. The university has since purchased another Steinway D. > >This is why guitar tuners do not work for tuning pianos. Piano >tuners are more complex and cost multiples of an ordinary >tuner. There are a variety of electronic tuners offered explicitly >for tuning pianos. The cheap ones have stretch templates that may >or may not do a good job of "parodying" the piano you are >tuning. The mid-level ones sample three notes on a piano and then >calculate a stretch curve for the entire piano. The high-end one >measures each note you tune and fits it into the scale based on the >measurements and records those measurements along with partial >strength to influence the placement of other notes. Scaling breaks >occur at many places in the piano. Every time you change wire size, >you have a scaling break. That will influence tuning. People who >tune relying strictly on their ETD will find that aural checks of an >FAC type ETD will reveal tuning problems on pianos that have >prominent scaling breaks (usual in little pianos). > >As to temperament preferences, Equal Temperament is the most >dissonant temperament. It is also the most flexible temperament, >allowing transposition without changing the character of a musical >piece. The further you wander from equal towards just temperament >the more consonant common keys and intervals will become. This >comes at a price. The dissonance will be confined more and more >into increasingly dissonant keys/intervals. The repertoire becomes >more and more constrained by the tuning. I like >well-temperaments. I've enjoyed Barnes Bach on a piano for some >time. The piano sounded much better and more powerful as many >intervals were close to consonant. The difficulty was in the more >modern repertoire. Debussy came across more like sand-paper then >the creamy/dreamy sounds you expect from this composer. Composers >that utilized unequal temperaments wrote pieces that took advantage >of those inequalities. When you switch keys in Mozart, Beethovan, >Bach etc. you audibly switch gears in a well-temperament. Modern >composers wrote for what they heard on the piano, some advocated for >ET. Understand what you are getting when you choose a tuning and >then make your choice. > >Good luck, >Andrew Anderson > >At 06:30 AM 2/12/2006, you wrote: >>Hi all, >> >>I'm currently studying temperaments, and I wonder if a tuner always >>use a stretched temperament, >>especially since this doesn't seems quite compatible with the use >>of electronic tuning devices. >>(for the not aural tuners...) >> >>This question, especially since I've a CD with reference tones for >>a stretched temperament, which >>seems quite strange since a stretched temperament should depend on >>the kind of piano, shouldn't >>they ? So what ? >> >>subsidiary question : as a tuner, do you prefer to use equal >>temperament ? or do you prefer to use >>another one ? (which one) ... Or do your clients often have their >>specific requests ? (in this case >>what are you commonly asked ?) >> >>Philippe Errembault ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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