I think "ETD ers are so touchy" because, time after time, your remarks tend towards being incendiary. William, what in the world are you talking about. This is my first ever post on this subject and I most certainly didn't mean to be anything close to incendiary. As far as "auralier than thou" I guess that you and Alan could be said to be "ETDer than thou". Could it possible be that some of you haven't taken the time to learn how to tune auraly and just get jabbed at the mere mention of aural tuning. I have no problem with ETDs. I do get upset when some ding-bat goes out and buys one along with a tuning lever and the next day puts an add in the local paper claiming to be a "Master Tuner" when he wouldn't know what a piano was if it fell on him. Other than that, I have even thought of buying one but at my age and the amount of work I entend to do I see no need. As long as the professionals/concert artists I deal with are excited about my tuning, I feel no need to invest in an ETD. If I was younger and wanted to tune 5 pianos a day, I would probably invest in one. As far as Steinway's comment on Aural tuning, I have a problem with any company that brags about taking 5 years to change a bolt. We are all still allowed to have our oppinions. Ron May, RPT ----- Original Message ----- From: "William R. Monroe" <pianotech at a440piano.net> To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: Re: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID > Yes. > > Wearing earplugs is a great asset in hearing beats and tuning in general. > Preserves your hearing and I find the beats come through much more > clearly. > Additionally, plugs knock out a great deal of background noise. If you > don't know how folks tune with plugs, you've obviously not tried 'em. > > Ron, > > I think "ETD ers are so touchy" because, time after time, your remarks > tend > towards being incendiary. As Alan said, your posts are a bit "aurallier > than thou." Claiming you said nothing against ETD(ers) is like a fellow > giving a reference for another saying "Yeah, he does great work - with the > right supervision." Obviously not a good reference, but one that you > could > respond in the way you did (What, me? I never said anything bad.) > > BTW, do you believe everything Steinway tells you? > > William R. Monroe > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Porritt, David" <dporritt at mail.smu.edu> > To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:58 AM > Subject: RE: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID > > > Ron: > > I'm an aural tuner who bought an ETD back in 1992. I now tune using both > my > ears and the ETD. However, ALL tuning is done with the help of ear plugs. > In my humble opinion anyone who read Brent Fisher's last post to the list > and doesn't wear hearing protection, just isn't paying attention. I wear > hearing protection because I hear so much better that way. > > I first noticed this phenomenon many years ago when attending PTG classes. > The teacher would be demonstrating a tuning technique and I noticed how > much > better I was hearing 30 feet away from the piano than I ever did at the > piano. Finally (it takes me a while) the light dawned! Close to the > piano > it's too loud! Now I can sit on the piano bench and hear it like I used > to > from the back of the classroom. > > Hearing protectors! Don't leave home without them! > > dp > > __________________________ > David M. Porritt, RPT > Meadows School of the Arts > Southern Methodist University > Dallas, TX 75275 > dporritt at smu.edu > > ________________________________ > > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org on behalf of RON MAY, RPT > Sent: Sat 3/18/2006 7:27 AM > To: tune4u at earthlink.net; Pianotech List > Subject: Re: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID > > > Wow! > > Why are you ETD ers so touchy. I don't think I said one thing against > tuners that use ETD's other than my experience with the old lady. Have you > gotten so touchy about the mere mention of aural tuning you take it as an > attack. The fact is that I have thought many times about investing in one. > It would be especially nice as you say in noisy situations and I guess I > can > see that it probably could be a help in pitch raise and if you prefer to > use > them that is fine. I also know and have a number of friends that use them > and are excellent "RPT" tuners. > > I will also admit to you that about the only thing I know about an ETD > other > than Siemens of course, is that it has a screen. I know that you are now > going to say I should go check them out. Folks, I am 69 years old as of > last week and going on 22. If I bought one of those things, my teacher, > Dr. > William Braid White would do a back flip in his grave.I have cut my work > load down to three pianos a day. I retired when I quit working on > Saturday. > I also wouldn't think about tuning a piano before 10am or after 4 pm. I > can > tune a piano, usually in an hour to an hour and a half. I take in one > action > at a time and am backed up on action work for about 3 months--yeh! I do it > because I like to do it and I do it when I want to. > > Don't be so bloomin touchy ETDers. I have got one question. How do you > hear > the piano when you have plugs in your ears? > > On page 57 under Tuning in the Steinway Technical service guide. ( you > ought > to get one) I quote: > "Steinway & Sons stresses the importance of aural tuning. Developing > piano > tone is a mechanical and musical art. Solid aural tuning exercises and > develops the musical ear, giving the technician a greater ability to > master > the methods used in tone building." > > You don't need to holler and get upset with me----Holler at Mr. Steinway. > > Some day I think I will probably check the ETDs out if for no other reason > but curiosity. There is maybe one thing you ETDers can help me with. Just > about every week or two I get a call from someone in the area who has just > had their piano tuned and are very unhappy with the extreme last octave in > the bass. This isn't just one tuner that I run into. Invariably the last > octave is so far sharp it is dissonant. Any kid with a years lessons would > hear it. There is no way any tuner has listened to this. Is there > something > about ETDs that don't hear that last octave? > > Hang loose people. There are plenty pianos out there for all of us. > > Ron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alan Barnard <mailto:tune4u at earthlink.net> > To: Pianotech List <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 1:00 AM > Subject: RE: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID > > I'm NOT trying to pick a fight here, but some of these posts sound kind of > "aurallier than thou," to me, and I thought (and hoped) we'd gotten past > that years ago. > > I personnally believe in being proficient in both aural and ETD tuning. > But > people who do use ETDs tend to use them most of the time. There is a > reason > for that: it's easier and for many operations, like one-pass pitch raises, > it is faster and more accurate for most tuners. Also, in noisy > environments > you just can't beat 'em. > > While it is unquestionably true that the ear hears many things that > machines > do not (voicing and unwanted noise as prime examples), it is equally true > that the machine has capabilities that the ear does not, e.g., string > diagnostics, strength of partials (an aid to voicing), spectrum analysis > of > difficult unisons (high treble, especially), etc. > > So, ears? ETDs? I use both. I am amazed at the ability of so many > outstanding aural-only tuners, and I am also cognizant that some of the > finest concert performance tuners are, unabashedly, ETD tuners. > > The late, great George Defebaugh said (with reference to ETDs): "If you > live > long enough, every tuner will need these someday." Okay, and/or or maybe > hearing aids. > > > Another point: Some types of hearing loss can be remarkably compensated by > hearing aids. Others cannot. Depends on the pathology and neurology > involved, I suppose. > > Yet another point: I certainly have encountered pianos which were last > tuned > by very experienced aural tuners who were obviously just guessing at the > extremes of the piano, especially the treble. If I get to that point, I > will > be thrilled to whip out the old Pocket PC, punch up Tunelab, and get that > high treble dead on. > > There is no shame, nor is there any particular nobility, in being either > an > ETD tuner or an aural tuner, and there is real advantage to being both, > IMH?O. > > Do we agree that ALL that really counts are results, i.e., sweetly tuned > pianos, happy customers, and a jingle in the tuner's pocket? > > Alan Barnard > Salem, Missouri > > P.S. And yes, by all means, get your hearing checked and protect what you > have! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: RON MAY, RPT <mailto:ronmay_rpt at bellsouth.net> > To: joegarrett at earthlink.net;Pianotech List <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: 03/17/2006 10:52:08 PM > Subject: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID > > > Hi Techs > > Hopefully I can help everyone or someone a bit. > > I received my second hearing aid about 6 months ago. I am a 69 year old > Aural tuner who sees absolutely no benefit in ever owning an Tunlab or > whatever. I am a concert tuner and to this day will put my tuning up > against > any of you. Among my customers are 4 phd's in piano performance, one > master > in piano performance, a large number of piano teachers etc.etc.etc. Oh > Yeah---I am an rpt. > > I can remember my concerns about getting a hearing aid. I wondered what > my > customers would think, "a piano tuner with a hearing aid" sure. The fact > is > that over the past 8 years I have been wearing and aid. I have never had > one person ever even question it. I have discussed it with people, usually > with customers who also had aids and wanted to know what kind I had and > why > I liked them. I, like everyone else that wears an aid never realized what > I > was missing until I received my first one. For what it is worth, I can > still > do a good job tuning a piano without the aids but they are such a great > assistance I hate to be without them. > > There were certain pianos that I always noticed were harder for me to hear > the beats in than others. The absolute worst for me was a 50s vintage > Acrosonic. > > It was my ear nose and throat physician that recommended originally that I > get my hearing checked. The Audiologist worked within the same office as > the > physician. The test showed some loss over all but particularly nerve > damage > in some of the higher frequencies. The audiologist suggested that I try > and > aid. Most of the Audiologist have a free 30 day+ trial. The very first > piano I happened upon wearing my first aid was a 50s Acrosonic. When I > started to set the first 5th I tweaked up the volume a little and "wow" > those beats jumped out of that piano like I couldn't believe. It didn't > take > me long to become a true believer. > > I would not recommend any tuner getting the newer digital, automatic > volume > control aids. I have known other tuners that had them and had problems. I > like the ability to adjust the volume as needed for the particular > situation. > > There are a lot of hidden benefits to wearing especially two aids. One is > when I go to the movies and the sound system is so loud that everyone that > attends needs new hearing aids when they leave. I just turn my aids off > and > they act as ear plugs. They also come in handy when your wife is upset > with > you. > > I would bet that over half of the piano technicians have at least some > hearing loss. I would urge all of you to get your hearing checked every > year > and don't be afraid to give an aid a try. Believe me, your friends and > especially your customers won't care. If there piano sounds great when you > are ready to leave, they won't care if you wear ear muffs. > > A couple of signs for you that are signals that you have a loss: > > If you have to raise the volume on the TV and the wife complains about it. > If you don't understand what your wife says from the kitchen while you are > watching TV > If you keep having to ask people to repeat what they said. > and last but not least---If the beats don't jump out of your Acrosonic. > > With my aids, I hear things that many tuners don't. > Recently I got called out on a two year old Samick grand. The owner, a > sweet > old lady, had been complaining about the piano to the past two ETD tuners > as > well as the piano store. They told here that there was nothing wrong with > the piano that what she was hearing was because of her hearing aids. She > also had two aids. The piano had been tuned within two weeks of my arrival > and twice over the month.. The tuning was uneven but my tuning was going > fine until I started into the bass. As I passed into the bass break I > noticed this terrible sound. The strings sounded more like a guitar. When > I > checked the bearing on the bass bridge, the first five notes you could > stick > paper between the bridge and the strings. There was a minus .020 down > bearing on the rear and +.005 on about 1/8 inch of the front of the > bridge. > The piano was sent back to the factory and the lady is thrilled with her > new > piano. > > For God Sake---go get your ears checked people.Your ETDs don't hear this > stuff. Half of you can't hear and don't know it. Piano tuners are probably > among the absolutely worst hearing people in the world. > > > Ron May > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joseph Garrett <mailto:joegarrett at earthlink.net> > To: pianotech <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 2:22 PM > Subject: Hearing Exam - was OhOh > > > > "You mentioned being "of a certain age" (it's a big club) and I'm > wondering > how your hearing is at that end of the piano. If you don't have an ETD but > do have hearing loss at higher frequencies, you may need to bite the > bullet > and buy one. For what it's worth, I like Tunlab on my PocketPC because it > is > more affordable than others, has everything I need, and has a built in > spectrum analyzer that REALLY helps you see what's going on in those top > octaves." > > Why is it so darned hard to go to the Audiologist and get your ears > checked?!!! We all need to do that, at least, every other year. In our > case, > once a year is more logical. Sheesh! (And guys are worse than the ladies. > Must be a "guy thing" or is it just plain ego getting in the way of logic? > Yeah, I'm back.<G> Been taking a sabbatical from youse guys/gals. (I can > take only so much, ya know.<G>) > Regards, > > Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon) > Captain, Tool Police > Squares R I > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
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