How To Choose an ETD was ... something else

[David Ilvedson]

John,

Maybe you could explain what "make the more important
intervals sound better: e.g., the 15ths, 12ths, and even 4ths on certain
smaller pianos."   What is "better" in a 15th?  12th?  4th?   

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, California



----- Original message ----------------------------------------
From: "John M. Formsma" <john at formsmapiano.com>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Received: 5/22/2006 5:31:41 AM
Subject: RE: RE : How To Choose an ETD was ... something else


>Bob,

>You wrote:
><< Is the question, "Which method produces the best tunings?" 
>or "Which method produces the best tunings for the most tuners?">>  

>Good point. It is true we can often find ourselves "arguing" about two or
>more different things. And I agree that an ETD can be a useful learning tool
>when the student doesn't have a mentor to observe his work. But I would say
>let's not let our learning stop at the ETD level.

>I began doing part time work with the SAT II in 1991, and didn't know much
>about anything other than unisons. Looking back on it, maybe I didn't know
>much about that either. ;-)  Then, in 1999-2000, under the good instruction
>of Leonard Gustafson, RPT, I began to learn to tune aurally. For a time, I
>used the SAT II in conjunction with tuning aurally, but soon learned what to
>listen for and put the machine away. It was very difficult, but I persisted
>and it finally began to make sense. I'd hate to see anyone not go past that
>point of everything "clicking" and making sense. Not persisting through that
>point might make it necessary for some dependency on ETDs. That, in my
>opinion, makes some unable to really hear the small differences that turn a
>good, solid tuning into a delightful musical experience.

>Only by constant comparison of beat rates, sound swell and decay, etc. was
>it possible to expand my ear/mind to learn to hear the slightest whisper of
>difference between the various intervals. Whereas, if I'd continued to use
>the SAT II, I would not have been able to tell the difference.

>The Verituner 100 is a good machine, and my only regret in using it for 1.5
>years is that I became a lazy listener. It was way too easy to let the
>machine make decisions for me. When I woke up and started listening again, I
>realized that I could do better, especially in making the more important
>intervals sound better: e.g., the 15ths, 12ths, and even 4ths on certain
>smaller pianos. (Maybe this is not the experience of other ETD users.)

>So, all that to say...that aural work is a better fit for me. I realize that
>I have only my own experience to go on, and that is a poor and inadequate
>determinant of absolute "correctness." I say if a person realizes that he
>tunes better with a machine, "more power to you." But I realize that I don't
>tune as well with a machine. The differences are slight, and most of my
>customers probably can't tell the difference (I can). For me, it's about
>squeezing out the most musicality from the piano.

>John Formsma

>-----Original Message-----
>From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
>Of Bob Hull
>Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 10:54 PM
>To: Pianotech List
>Subject: Re: RE : How To Choose an ETD was ... something else

>Marcel, John, David,

>I agree with much of what you are saying about the
>need for the use of aural tuning methods. Is the
>question, "Which method produces the best tunings?" 
>or "Which method produces the best tunings for the
>most tuners?"  or "Which method teaches you the most?"
> or ....   "What is best for me?"  Of course this has
>been discussed heavily for years.

>There have been some formal comparison tests in the
>past between aural and ETD.  I think it was carried
>out by Jim Coleman and Virgil Smith.  Did that reveal
>a slight edge for the aural method?  But, that's just
>between those two people if so.  

>It sounds like David is saying aural is the best and
>yet you said the ETD shows the ideal - 
>"If the machine is actually used as a teaching
>tool---to SHOW somebody visually how close or far they
>are from ideal, and let their body note that
>info---then  I say what an incredible tool; what an
>ear and perception enhancer."  

>The combination of aural practice, checking against
>ETD and studying good tuning material such as On Pitch
>by Rick Baldassin can be a great help.  It's too bad
>that so much of our experience is gained "solo"
>without the frequent evaluation and input of a
>experienced friend or mentor.


>For me, I improved my aural tuning skills while using
>the SAT II.  I was able to pass the RPT tuning exam
>aurally with a score just one point shy of CTE level. 
>Maybe I would have done even better if I had done more
>aural and less etd during my first couple of years
>tuning.  



>Bob Hull


>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org 
>> > [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of
>> David Andersen
>> > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 1:10 PM
>> > To: Pianotech
>> > Subject: Re: How To Choose an ETD was ...
>> something else
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Folks---note the difference; Don says "if used
>> properly,"  Ed 
>> > says "who starts relying on" the ubiquitous ETD. 
>> And there's 
>> > the rub: I believe it's up to the individual, and
>> his/her 
>> > mentor, the degree to which the student, from the
>> beginning, 
>> > replaces or augments the function of the ear with
>> the machine.  
>> > 
>> > If the machine is actually used as a teaching
>> tool---to SHOW 
>> > somebody visually how close or far they are from
>> ideal, and 
>> > let their body note that info---then  I say what
>> an 
>> > incredible tool; what an ear and perception
>> enhancer.  
>> > 
>> > If, however, the machine is used as a substitute
>> for
>> > listening, as something like paint-by-the-numbers,
>> where 
>> > you're just filling in where you're told to, I
>> believe it can 
>> > hurt an essential learning function of the
>> students' body and 
>> > being; further, I think it can---CAN---lead to a
>> steady 
>> > lessening of the students' ability to truly listen
>> with the 
>> > whole body in a relaxed way, which, to me, is the
>> fundamental 
>> > component of doing world-class piano work.
>> > 
>> > If you're a young (or young at heart) passionate,
>> committed 
>> > student if piano technology, why wouldn't you want
>> to learn 
>> > how to use your ears in the most taxing, intimate,
>> and 
>> > focused way? You would, if you wanted to wring the
>> maximum 
>> > benefit from your learning.  That's why I believe
>> every 
>> > serious student of piano technology who wants to
>> be a 
>> > working, every-day pianotech will be best served
>> by learning 
>> 
>=== message truncated ===



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