Don wrote: Water Softners replace calcium ions with sodium ions. The result is a bucket of very salty water by the end of a year. Salty water is not so good for piano wire, so I'm told by the folks who live on our coasts. This seems to be in the category of wives tale. It has a ring of truth to it, but has been dispelled by Roger Wheeler himself in the post below when you've made similar claims 3 years ago. I also have many years of anecdotal evidence in scores of systems to demonstrate that using soft water does not contribute to string corrosion. YMMV Dean Dean May cell 812.239.3359 PianoRebuilders.com 812.235.5272 Terre Haute IN 47802 -----Original Message----- From: Roger Wheelock [mailto:roger at dampp-chaser.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:11 AM To: deanmay at pianorebuilders.com; Pianotech Cc: kelly at dampp-chaser.com Subject: Re: Dampp Chaser question Hello List, Our experience is as follows and is primarily related to our product. Salts in the water in the humidifier eventually attack the coated aluminum of the humidifier heater bar. Insoluble calcium and magnesium salts (from hard water) seem to be the most aggressive. This may occur because they tend to plate out on the heater bar and are in direct physical contact with the coated aluminum. Sodium salts tend to stay in solution and bathe the coated aluminum. Generally, this has not been a problem with units until they have been in the field for 10 years or so. However, we did run into a problem area in Canada, in John Ross' neck of the woods where humidifier heater bars were deteriorating faster. The water in this region was quite acidic, similar to Coca Cola. The combination of acidic water and salt was dramatic. Our solution to this was to change the coating on humidifier heater bars to Auto Chassis Black, a rust resistant coating put on cars in the Northeastern and Midwestern US. Note that Smart Heater Bars have an additional plastic coating. The water coming off the humidifier heater bar does not contain salt. It is vaporized in a way similar to how water is distilled. The salts are left behind. I believe the corrosive nature of salt water (eg. from the ocean) is due to it being born by the wind and not due to vaporization. This said we have had a couple of bad experiences in the history of Dampp-Chaser. Two times piano owners have gone to a place like Walmart or Home Depot and purchased what they thought was "humidifier treatment". There are actually two types of "humidifier treatment". One is a mild biocide, similar to what we sell, that inhibits the growth of mold and mildew. The other is a highly corrosive liquid used to dissolve hard water salts in large industrial humidifiers. This second material is sometimes called boiler descaler. It contains either hydrochloric acid or organo chlorine oxidizers in an acidic environment. The piano owners who used this material rusted the pianos strings severely and the pianos required restringing. Since these occurrences we have made it clear that piano owners should only use the humidifier treatment we sell or the warranty is voided. I have also done my best to educate as many technicians as possible and appreciate the opportunity to reinforce these ideas. Thanks, Roger Wheelock Dampp-Chaser Corp. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean May" <deanmay at pianorebuilders.com> To: "'Pianotech'" <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:38 PM Subject: RE: Dampp Chaser question > Thanks for the clarification on what happens when water is softened. > Your explanation makes sense. But it still is not making sense to me > that using it will cause corrosion in a piano. > > First, I haven't seen it on pianos that have used soft water for many > years. > > Next, having used soft water in my home for many years, I can say > anecdotally that soft water is much less corrosive on plumbing fixtures > than hard water is. Hard water still has reactive elements (calcium, > chlorine, manganese, etc) and they ruin plumbing fixtures way worse than > sodium chloride. And for pianos that use hard water I don't see these > elements making it to the piano wire any more than the sodium chloride. > > I'd appreciate Roger Wheeler weighing in on the discussion to let us > know what DampChaser's official position is on using soft water. Also if > there are any chemists (maybe you are one, Don) who can quantify the > impact of using soft water in DampChasers. Can those reactive elements > migrate out of the bucket into the action and piano wire? > > Dean > Dean May cell 812.239.3359 > PianoRebuilders.com 812.235.5272 > Terre Haute IN 47802 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don [mailto:pianotuna at yahoo.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 3:48 PM > To: deanmay at pianorebuilders.com; Pianotech > Subject: RE: Dampp Chaser question > > Hi Dean, > > Salt water does nasty things to metal Dean. > > At 04:26 PM 12/4/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>I've had really good success with recommending soft water for DChaser >>systems. The combination of soft water and treatment leaves pads soft >>even after a year. I've seen no adverse effects from such a > combination. >> >> >>How is it hard on the pianos? >> >>Dean >>Dean May cell 812.239.3359 >>PianoRebuilders.com 812.235.5272 >>Terre Haute IN 47802 >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On >>Behalf Of Don >>Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 2:22 PM >>To: Pianotech >>Subject: RE: Dampp Chaser question >> >>Hi Mark, >> >>Water softners work by replacing calcium ions with sodium ions (salt). >>This >>is very hard on DC systems and on pianos in general--the clients should >>not >>use softened water in their units. >> >>At 02:00 PM 12/4/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>> I use the humidifier treatment only occasionally on my own >>piano at >>>home where the water has a fairly high mineral content. I get very >>little >>>buildup on the heater bars and the pads seem to last forever. OTOH, I >>have >>>had customers with water softening systems where the pads were shot >>after 4 >>>months and the crud had to be scraped off with a knife. - Mark >>Dierauf >> >>Regards, >>Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T. >>Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat >> >>mailto:pianotuna at yahoo.com http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/ >> >>3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7 >>306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner >> >>_______________________________________________ >>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: > 12/2/2005 >> >> > > Regards, > Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T. > Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat > > mailto:pianotuna at yahoo.com http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/ > > 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7 > 306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC