To Dale and everybody else who has been kind enough to respond to my query and quandary:
First of all, thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom and experience. I will try to answer everybody’s questions and suggestions, but will use Dale’s post as my home base here.
I am going to start by saying that I went back to the customer’s house today to remove the tray and the dampers and bring them back to the shop. I spent a little time with the dampers to get some fresh reactions. I repeated what I had done before in that, with the action out, I would pick up the damper and drop it to hear how it sounded against the strings. It was clear that the felt was quite noisy against the strings, monochord, bichord, trichord, and to a lesser extent, the flats. Really, I think this has got to be one of the noisiest settings of the felt on the string to my ear. I have installed probably a couple hundred sets of grand dampers over the past 30 years or so. Those several notes that I put the Laoureaux felt on were quieter, but not entirely what I would hope for. And the THUMP is quite loud – I’ve done enough sets of dampers good, bad, and ugly to have something to compare it to.
My fresh reaction was that this is some hard felt. Never mind that it is only a few months old. The other clue is that it seems to be getting worse over even this short period of time because I didn’t notice these obvious symptoms when I finished the job. If they were doing then what they are doing now, I would surely have taken note and corrective action then and there.
So I made the decision that I will replace all the felt, and went ahead this afternoon and yanked it off. My instincts tell me that the felt is at least part of the problem, if not the whole solution. It’s just so damn noisy!
Dale, since this was a Teflon action, the new Tokiwa underlevers are longer than the originals, so yes, this would be a longer lever. I duplicated the 3, 2, 1, 0 leading scale of the original set, so all that lead will sit further out and farther from the pivot as you suggest. As for the WHUMP, it is prominent when I hold the tray up with my hand and release it, hard or soft. Again, noticeably more so than the average bear. I will take this to mean that, all else being equal, the difference in the length of the underlever will make damping worse if the lever is longer, yes?
Your comment that you believe that sufficient damping is not possible without springs and some spring tension seems particularly worth noting. The older Steinway L’s had return springs through most of the scale, as did other models. Yet this Teflon baby did not have them, and what would be so different between the older and the new to justify their exclusion?
Since the damper tray is sitting in my shop right now, I have the bag of springs that came with the kit and a Corex tension gauge; I take that to mean that your suggestion would be therefore for me to go ahead and install and adjust the tension of the springs. I’ve done that before, it is not hard and does not take long. My only question would be: Should I retain the leading as is, along with the springs, or remove some? Between the leading and the spring, I don’t want to overload the string at the nodal point – I am thinking here of the issues we can have in verticals with too strong damper springs. So your suggested protocol would be appreciated.
I am sensitive to your remarks about damper length. The old Steinways often had pretty short dampers but damped extremely well. The felt is much longer on the newer ones. My practice has always been to duplicate the lengths of the felt, which often varied on each end. I would add my own little dimestore theory to your comments about the nodal points – I think that the felt on the shorter damper piece will conform better to the string as it settles onto it and therefore shut it off more quickly than the longer felts. In fact it is usually my practice to install 4 smaller monochord felts instead of 2 longer ones, I find that the damping is quicker as a result. I sometimes carry that through the bichords also. I did this to the monochords on this Steinway, but no cigar.
The trichords and bichords are not unduly long, and the taper is appropriate for the agraffe width. Something one should always be aware of, but not the problem here.
As for the tray pin location, it has been long enough that I cannot remember enough of the details of what I did to relate to you. I followed the protocol as outlined in the article in the Journal using the jigs I built to establish location and got it dialed in, with the result being that I did not have to do gross wire bending fore and aft or side to side.
Thanks for your comments Dale – very helpful.
Thank you Jon Page, for your remarks - I think I have addressed them with my comments above. As for damper classes, I take them every chance I can get. Damper work is like voicing, you can’t know everything, but every little thing new that you learn is another piece of gold.
Garret, thanks for your suggestion with the lead shot. I think I will pursue adding the springs first, however.
Ron, thanks for your two cents. How come we all have so many scars? Are we all battle scarred veterans of the piano wars? How can you tell? We all look a little bit shell shocked! I do time my front-back lift to vary, with the fronts a tad early. I haven’t found the Tokiwa felt to be hard either, I have had good luck with it in the past. But this may be the set that sends me back to the Renner felt in the future, unless somebody tells me that has gone to poo too.
To Mike Spalding: I have the Renner instructions, and will duplicate the spring tension adjustments with the Corex gauge after I install them tomorrow. I think you just answered my question above to Dale concerning the combination of the springs and leads not overloading the string nodally. Thanks.
To Joe Defazio: I like your test – I just learned something, so thanks for the tidbit.
The plate struts are definitely ringing, but we’ll just call it spice at this point.
Presently, the plan seems to be to install and adjust the springs, then install and adjust the damper felt, hold my breath and hope the piano doesn’t give me the stink eye (damper wise).
I’ll keep you all posted.
Will
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of erwinspiano at aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 11:23 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Repeat of Question about damping problems with Steinway L
Hi Will
Frustratin ain't it?
Stwy Damper systems are notorious for there thump especially by a player who is using IMO poor pedal technique. The pedal si realeased quickly by the foot with a swift upward motion. Drive me nuts!...Show up on recordings etc...
Part of this phenomena occurs because of the weight to the dampers/underlevers/lead in conjunction with how far the tray pivots are located back on the tray. All this weight sits out on the end of a what amount to an essentially very long lever, the edge of the tray, where all the weight from the parts rest....far from the pivot... clear?
When I replace trays I relocate the tray pin to be in line with the under lever center. In this system the tray cannot fall with as much inertia as before and the whump is usually, in my experience, eliminated, even if the poor pedaling technique continues. With the pivots in this new position it is necessary to install two coil springs on the tray to achieve adequate return pressure to the trays rest position. No big deal.
I have also experimented with moving the pivots only 1/2 the distance to the underlever pin position which is also helpful in dealing with the whump & aslo the screwy way the damper upstop positions need adjusting to accommodate two different line of travel rotation. The underlevers rotate around one orbit based o n the realtive pin location & the the tray around another. See the problem?
any way...
Another issue is that IMO sufficient damping is not possible with out springs & some spring tension and ESPECIALLY in the bass. The New Model O for example has no damper return springs installed & the one I worked on had the same poor damping. The Steinway mother ship was not interested in my feedback or opinion. So, After 150 something years suddenly springs are not used....come on.
It does sound like the plate is resonating. Unless some one has effectively come up with a bar damping protocol you are stuck. This is easily demonstrated to your client as not you fault.
One last thing. Look at the length of dampers on the old models. Compare it the new. The amount of felt used in the past & forever was quite modest & were cut to very precise & specific lengths. I believe it was to avoid nodal points of contact in the bass & to also minimize the whooshing. Less felt less whooshing. This require cutting the new felts to length.
Sorry I wrote this quickly...Forgive any errors in whatever. Clarity?
Hope it helps.
Dale Erwin
To my esteemed colleagues on the list:
A couple of days ago I sent a post to the Forum regarding some damping issues I am having with a Steinway L on which I replaced the underlever system and the damper heads, and with which some interesting pro blems have developed. I had hoped for some feedback and diagnosis from damper experts wiser than I, but so far no bites. So I am reposting the query, in the hopes that some of you will find it interesting enough to comment. I surely would be most grateful for anything offered, as I will be working on the piano in the next day. My earlier post below:
About 8 months ago I replaced the back action on a Steinway L that is roughly thirty years old, along with all of the damper felt. This was a Teflon action, and the Teflon was in the process of slowly freezing up. I had replaced the shanks and whips and hammers, and the customer elected to have the back action done at the same time so as to remove the last looming issues with the aging Teflon.
I used the Tokiwa kit for the back action and the Tokiwa grand damper felt, with which I have had good success in the past.
About 2 months ago my customer called me and complained about how noisy the dampers had become. I scheduled an appointment and, sure enough, her complaints were justified. Her complaints were:
1) &nb sp; When she lifts the damper pedal, there is a fairly prominent woosh as the felt exits the strings – you know, that HAAAA sound.
2) When she releases the pedal, there is a fairly loud WHUMP as the dampers settle on the strings.
3) With the action removed, if I lift the tray with my hand and drop it, the WHUMP still occurs. (This means that the issue is not in the trapwork because I have removed it from the train here, and the problem remains).
4) If I stroke across the bass strings with the dampers on the bass strings, there is a fairly prominent hangover of the string excitation before it dies away – not unlike doing the same thing on across the bass strings of a spinet
5) On a staccato blow, you can see the damper felt fluttering on top of the bass string before it quiets it, accompanied by a ZUP kind of sound
6) If I lift that damper and drop it onto the string (without engaging the action at all), the same ZUP occurs.
7) If I tap on the bass plate struts, they ring for 1 to 2 seconds. I can feel them vibrate when the pedal thumps.
When I replaced the underlever system, I duplicated the leading and spring configuration of the original system. The original underlevers had 3 leads in the bass up to note 30, 2 up to note 46, 1 up to 59, and 0 from there. Ditto for the leading on the new set. The originals did not have springs, so I did not install any of the springs that came with the Tokiwa kit. Frankly, I don’t know enough about how the decisions are made for leading and springs, so I dup licated what was there for configuration. Of course, the new underlevers are longer than the old ones, which had to be accommodated in the locating of the tray, and the height and depth of the tray pivot pins.
I would like to further note that all dampers are lifting and moving freely. Action centers in the damper system are sufficiently free.
I built and used the locating jigs for the tray that were in the Journal article a while ago. I spent quite a bit of time setting things up and double checking. I am confident that the tray is located properly fore and aft and side to side. I have done a lot of grand damper work over the past thirty years and feel I am pretty good at it. I reused the original wire with the new felts, and it was my experience that the wire did not ask for an unusual amount of wire bending in any direction, which supports my notion that the tray was located with good accuracy. The damper sizes and lengths were duplicated.
Given the list of clues I have presented, it is natural to suspect that the damper felt is too hard, even though it is brand new. Bu t I have replaced the Tokiwa felt on several test notes with Larouex felt. At best, there is a very small improvement, so I don’t think that the felt is the whole enchilada.
Probably I will be replacing all the damper felt when I go back this week. But I am not confident that will solve the whole problem, and think I should perhaps also install damper springs. Whatever I do, I would like to make good decisions up front so as to limit my own bloodletting here.
So, I would be most grateful for the expert diagnosis of my compadres, given my list of symptoms. Thank you again for whatever you have to offer.
Will Truitt
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