David et al, I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest. As a SAT3 user since beginning to learn this trade about six years ago, I've been a bit mystified by how FAC can accurately determine a tuning. And since my aural skills have gotten less bad, and I've begun to notice that it's NOT creating a perfect tuning, I have been overruling what the SAT3 tells me to do. I believe this is the first discussion that I recall seeing on this topic, and in my mind it further cements the notion that a good tuner absolutely MUST know what the machine is doing for him/her. It's a lot like learning to do arithmetic on paper before resorting to using a calculator... but unlike using a calculator, the ETD continues to require brainpower beyond knowing which button to push. Could I see a show of hands... who still thinks we should have an ETD-only RPT exam? Anyone who is inclined to raise his hand should first go back and read -- and understand!! -- the relevant posts on this thread. Paul Bruesch Stillwater, MN On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 4:56 PM, David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>wrote: > BTW I should add that many Kawais produce very low inharmonicity readings > (some Yamahas and other high tension scales as well) and the high end of > those pianos often does come in with a much lower offset, C8 somewhere in > the +25 cents range rather than around say +40 cents on a Steinway. That > can be fine if the rest of the piano is consistent but when the F reading > is > so much difference it's a red flag to check that area of the piano. > Sometimes a flatter bass as that number will produce can make the piano > sound more consonant when you are playing at opposite ends of the piano > together (low bass with high treble) but you then sometimes compromise the > bass against the mid tenor. Let's face it, tuning is always finding the > most agreeable compromise and opinions about what that is will vary. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of David Love > Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 2:49 PM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > > Large Baldwin uprights can have those kind of readings and I can't really > say exactly what to do because it depends but the fact that you tune the > bass aurally speaks to the issue. With that kind of reading I would be > worried that the middle of the piano would be too narrow and the upper end > a > bit flat. I would probably want to consider expanding the tuning with the > DOB and check that with the A2 - A3 or A3 - A5 double octaves assuming that > I would tune the bass aurally or manually. The machine measures > inharmonicity at F3 to make a judgment about tuning the bass. If the scale > of the piano pushes the inharmonicity very high at F3 then you'll get a > high > reading that is likely too high for tuning the bass which tends to be lower > inharmonicity and will require less stretch than the reading at F3 > indicates. On a spinet you're almost guaranteed of high inharmonicity at > F3 > if the scale calls for plain wire there. If it's wrapped you'll often get > a > lower reading. I can't say what to do but when I get those kinds of > readings I take care in checking the temperament octave(s) and assume that > the bass will need to be carefully checked aurally or by direct interval > tuning, i.e. hit the "tune" button before you continue down and the note on > the display will be the coincident note being tuned to the lower octave > note. If you want that coincident to be pure then set the lower note with > the lights moving the same direction and speed as with the upper note or > hit > the measure button first so that the lights stop on the upper note then > tune > the lower note. Adjust accordingly for each step or for more or less > stretch for that coincident harmonic. > > Speaking generally, it's a limitation with machines that has to be > monitored. If the piano is well scaled throughout (do you know one that > is?) then the machine produces a pretty nice tuning on its own. To the > degree that the scaling has bumps or anomalous readings (especially in the > notes used for measurement) then be prepared to tweak the tuning or > settings. The reason I use the SAT is because it works well with my hybrid > approach and is easily manipulated to accommodate problems in the tuning > curve including a quick read of specific coincident harmonics. It may or > may not be the most sophisticated in terms of reading all aspects of the > scale and calculating a tuning but it works for me. To put it another way > I > rarely just accept what the machine tells me. I've used it enough to know > when I might have a problem and have learned to make adjustments in the > settings and always do at least a quick aural check as I'm going. More of > a > verification with an octave or fifth or fourth, tenth, something I can > easily reach with one hand rather than a stop and do a check as I would > tuning aurally. It's just a tool, not the holy grail. At least that's how > I approach it. When I'm done, btw, I turn off the machine and go through > the unisons again and at least spot check the octave and interval > progressions through the trouble areas. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of Jim Busby > Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 1:06 PM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > > David, > > UST7s usually give 14-5-5 or something like that, but they're not spinets. > What's your take on these pianos/scales? I've tuned thousands of them and > usually just tune the bass aurally. How should I tweak the SAT and make it > work better with these? > > Jim Busby > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of David Love > Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 1:33 PM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > > That's right. Spinets often give you an F reading of 15 - 20 which results > in a very stretched bass. Better quality pianos that will tolerate more > stretch usually yield a lower number like 6 - 8. The lower number produces > a tighter (narrower) bass. The spinet actually needs the tighter bass that > the lower number of a better quality piano will produce and not the more > stretched bass that the higher number produces. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of Paul Milesi > Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:25 AM > To: PTG Pianotech List > Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > > David & David, > > I, too, am anxious to clear this up. Paul Sanderson demonstrated to me at > a > convention that a lower F number results in a "tighter" bass, i.e., less > stretched. That is, the SAT will place the bass notes (starting with B27) > slightly sharper with a lower F number. > > Paul > -- > Paul Milesi, RPT > Washington, DC > (202) 667-3136 > E-mail: paul at pmpiano.com > Website: http://www.pmpiano.com > > > > From: David Brown <dcbrown5 at exchange.asu.edu> > > Reply-To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:18 -0700 > > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > > Conversation: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > > Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAT IV extended > > > > David- > > > > "Once the f6 measurement goes beyond 10.5 I just stop there and set it > and > > tune the bass by direct interval checking i.e., aural/electronic style. > The > > lower the F # the more stretched the bass will be. " > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong, but won't the lower F number give less > > stretch in the bass? > > > > Thanks- > > > > David C. Brown > > Arizona State University > > School of Music > > Piano Technician > > 1-480-965-6760 > > david.c.brown.2 at asu.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20091228/9b9af53d/attachment.htm>
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