I use both depending on the goal which for me is the targeted tone with the least amount of manipulation. Targets do vary, however, and the consistency of the Renner Blue is considerably different from the current Ronsen Weickert. The Renner blue needs substantial shoulder needling progressing to very near the crown to open up the hammer. Some light crown needling is also beneficial and gives a more lustrous tone. The Weickert hammers that I have used are more open to begin with, need a slight building up in the treble (and maybe the low bass) but develop very nicely with a bit of playing. They are not prone to developing a harshness which the Renner Blue can in even moderate use situations. The Weickert hammers are more stable but you will need to allow them to develop somewhat. The Weickerts do not have that super solid feel at the bottom of a forte stroke so if you really need the piano to power up it may not be right-at least the sets that I've used. For a concert piano in a fairly large venue with a standard soundboard assembly I might opt for something a bit firmer-though Pianotek's own designed Abel felt hammer is also a good interim hammer with more power than the Weickert but less manipulation required than the Premium Blue. As you mention it depends on the goal and the tech's preferred way of working. I put a set of premium blues on a MH BB recently and though there was quite a bit of work to get the voice I wanted (and the customer too) the end result was fine but I do have concerns about development-that's always been my issue with them and with some of the Abel hammers as well. In retrospect, I think I could have gotten there much more easily with a set of Weickerts but they weren't yet available at the time and I had a set of premium blues in the shop. All that being said there is definitely a difference between hammers pressed with and without heat. The Weickerts, which are relatively cold pressed, maintain a certain springy liveliness (not to be confused with brightness) that you have to work very hard to get with hot pressed hammers. The ability to recapture that over time remains fairly stable with a cold pressed hammer, it dissipates more rapidly with a hot pressed hammer, at least in my view. The cold pressed hammer must be given time to develop to really get right so some patience on the part of the player is required. The Weickerts, however, need much less time than other hammers made with different felt that Ray at Ronsen has produced. If you need a concert piano up and running at full speed right away then you will need to put the Weickerts on the pounding machine prior to delivery. The Renners will be there from the start-though you may have more work keeping them there. All in all, I prefer a hammer that develops to its full capacity over time rather than one in which you are constantly fighting development issues. I think that's the traditional style of hammer philosophy and making and in that case I think they had it right. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Nick Gravagne Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 1:14 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org; oorebeek at planet.nl Subject: Re: [pianotech] Weickert special felt update Hi Dale, Pursuant to my phone calls to you and these recent posts, the Weickert felts appear to be an excellent new choice; and I look forward to using them ASAP. I have been wondering, however, where are those Renner Blue advocates out there, of which there must be many. I know of several Renner-only proponents (and first-rate technicians to boot), but I do not think they subscribe to this list. I don't wish to start a mine-is-better-than-yours debate; but it seems that a professional discussion of the relative experiences and anecdotal input on these matters along with specific voicing techniques would be worthwhile. Is a consensus of thought developing out there? Many experienced techs are loathe to use S&S hammers, either in the past or present, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they feel they cannot get the bite they are looking for. They opt for Renner or other or even Hamburg Steinway as they prefer to work the hammer down rather than up. Other fine techs take the opposite view by only using S&S as they feel they can't get the warmth or stability they are looking for. You and others have explained quite well the merits of the new Weickerts and I am very appreciative of that. I don't know if this post will catch on, and I doubt that any of us out here would be interested in a free for all; that is why my idea is to consider the opinions of experienced techs when it comes time to choose hammers for performance venue instruments such as Bs and Ds. We all know that such pianos need to bite as well as carry, and that most performers are going to voice frustration if this isn't the case. Having said this, I think it reasonable to assume the standard axioms such as: It all depends on the needs of the performer; Let the piano tell you what it needs; We don't all have the same sense of tone; you_fill_in_the_blanks. I would hope for professional replies, though I am aware that in the world of Lists and Groups many believe that a no-holds-barred approach is the most democratic, informative and should be considered the norm. At any rate, I am interested in such an airing, and I believe that such discussions have gone on in the past. Should this idea become a thread, the Subject line may need revising. Thanks again to you and Ray for all the R&D work and its value to the trade. Respectfully, Nick Gravagne, RPT Piano Technicians Guild Member Society Manufacturing Engineers Voice Mail 928-476-4143 _____ From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of erwinspiano at aol.com Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:47 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org; oorebeek at planet.nl Subject: [pianotech] Weickert special felt update Hi Andre and all Ray & I are still learning & refining the Ronsen process with this felt. Ray & I have received the latest iterations of this felt & will have product & piano at the convention in Burbank Any way the good news is I sent out a 1971 Steinway D rebuild to Sunnyvale Ca. on Sat with a set of Weickert special concert density (concert density...my term) hammers that is tonally outside of the box. It was not a new board, but, It was fantastic. It is very much like the first test set I installed on the Kawai kg-3 last summer & was curious about the density of those first hammer sets/sheets. It works very well with Rays pressing method. On the Sunnyvale D... the initial sound was slightly dark in the bass & low tenor but absolutely huge. In My Opinion, For New York Ds to sound like N.Y. Ds' they require a firm crown so I put about 4 to 6 drops of very weak key top solution on the crown of the bass hammers & one drop on each string cut from not 21 to note 35. That's it. Nothing but the initial filing on notes 35 thru 88. Break in solution if you will. It was so easy I felt guilty Yes, the hammers would have played in, but the time it takes to do this is not always available for D's that are going right into in concert situations. However, this is absolutely a great choice of felt & an extremely versatile hammer for this application. This Steinway D had more color than a box of color crayons. Pure tonal power,Lush,gorgeous,clear,sustain,projection, definition. I'm telling you, Wurzen is on the right track. This piano ( the D) was allegedly in the Custody of Van Cliburn at one time. Probably one of many. You Know? The client is a virtuoso & can really play. She was thrilled. Truly a fantastic sound.The voicing protocol was so simple it should be a secret. Never laid a needle in it except to test density. The really fussy work in my practice is prepping the set for an extremely even hammer weight curve and a beautifully shaped hammer. This is where the time is spent when doing custom action balancing & concert level voicing but the voicing time in this case was very little. Truly amazing! This felt is so resilient & bounces off the string so willingly that the voicing stability & longevity should be fantastic & simple to maintain. The felt is very promising...understament! Dale Erwin mean? <http://shopping.aol.com/articles/2009/02/02/flowers-by-meanings/?ncid=AOLCO MMshopdrspwebf0001> Find out now! _____ Carnations mean admiration, Tulips mean love - what do Roses mean? <http://shopping.aol.com/articles/2009/02/02/flowers-by-meanings/?ncid=AOLCO MMshopdrspwebf0001> Find out now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech_ptg.org/attachments/20090214/48161d24/attachment-0001.html>
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