Right: when moving the una corda, I meant move the hammer, not the damper.
I've changed nothing. Not a thing--no screws (did check to make sure they were tight), tabs, sostenuto is the same.
I did notice that the damper pedal has changed its position, though. At rest It is lower now than it used to be, thus not coming up high enough to let the dampers get back down on the strings?
Also, when I engaged the damper pedal, there is a definite, "knock" coming from somewhere above the damper rod as it goes into the piano. (I don't know the nomenclature for the trap & underside, damper parts-sorry)
the cheek blocks are in but that made no difference.
this knock and difference in the pedal height is new.
The dampers do seem to lift together,
with the exception of E2. It lifts late, with the with the
distal (back) side finally lifting then the front pops up.
I don't know how to get to damper lift rail, tray, flange, without disturbing other things.
I would venture to take it apart to see what's happening, except it took so long to get the sostenuto perfect. I would hate to mess that up, but it seems to be a wreck now, anyway.
Perhaps another clue is in the knock that's heard when the damper is depressed--just as it begins to makes contact and moves the bolt that is directly above the brass damper rod; and also that the pedal is not coming back up all the way?
I would take things apart so I can see what's happening, except it looks like I'd have to fool with the sostenuto, and that took months to adjust before we got it exactly right.
I had hoped my help would be coming, but he's booked solid until the middle of Feb.
I don't know how to get to the tray, without disturbing all the other things.
______________________________________________________________________
A painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence.
--- On Thu, 1/22/09, pianotech-request at ptg.org <pianotech-request at ptg.org> wrote:
From: pianotech-request at ptg.org <pianotech-request at ptg.org>
Subject: pianotech Digest, Vol 3, Issue 190
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 9:29 AM
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Broken Grand dampers (Paul McCloud)
2. Re: regulation "sweet" spot (John Delacour)
3. Re: Broken Grand dampers (Conrad Hoffsommer)
4. Re: Broken Grand dampers (Fenton Murray)
Hi, Bob:
Very confusing. Any chance for pictures? My first thought it, does the damper tray return to it's original position? Check to see if the pitman dowel and pin are situated in the tray and the underlever. If the tray isn't returning to it's low position, that would explain why the dampers won't return all the way down.
"the damper barely missed the left string at full una corda. " I assume you meant "the hammer".
Is there a player mechanism installed?
Simply moving some hammer flanges a fraction isn't going to change how the dampers work. If you put a shim behind the rest block at the left side of the action cavity, I could see perhaps a problem with the key ends missing some of the underlevers. I assume you didn't do that.
You say you pulled the action and nothing seemed out of place, loose, broken, etc. Did you inadvertently leave any small tools in the action/cavity that might have gotten stuck in there?
I'd say to remove the action again and check things out. I would assume that no other changes were made to any damper wires, nothing was removed/replaced in the back action, no screws were removed from the damper rail, no dampers were removed/replaced, etc.
If you haven't moved anything, nothing is broken, everything is exactly as it was before you moved the hammer flanges, then I'd say we have a mystery on our hands. There HAS to be something more to this. Get a strong light and look more carefully. Be sure the sostenuto blade has been adjusted properly (you didn't move it, right?).
Other than that, I'd ask a colleague to take a look at it. Nothing like a second pair of eyes to see what one might have missed.
Good luck.
Paul McCloud
San Diego
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Tate
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: 01/22/2009 7:36:45 AM
Subject: [pianotech] Broken Grand dampers
Hi people,
I've had to be away because of a bad back--still hurts like crazy.
_______________
I believe a major problem may have just happened with my Estonia 190.
I've been working on getting the una corda pedal to be just as I want it, or rather make certain the hammers hit the strings in just the right place when it's depressed. (i.e., not how depressed I feel right now)
Here's what happened:
this morning, I made a minor change to a hammer flange position. I put the action back in the piano.
When I pressed the una corda and let it return, the alignment looked as I wanted it, the damper barely missed the left string at full una corda. The shift works properly.
Next, I pushed down the damper pedal.
All the dampers lifted as expected, however, when the pedal was released, the entire set of dampers hung, just above their "at rest" position.
I checked the action to make certain it was properly seated on the key bed and in the piano as far back as it could go. It is.
I tried the damper pedal again.
This time, on the damper return, I heard a "creeeek" or rather, "creekcraaack." And the dampers still hung slightly above their at rest position.
Not liking that "crack" sound; with the damper pedal not depressed, I lifted and let drop, each damper head, manually.
All worked as expected, except E2 (the last damper before the end of the bass bridge and before the bass/treble strut).
Lifting it, I felt a little, loose up/down and side to side, wobble.
Letting it drop, maked an audible "click," then, "thud" as it returned to where it started.
The thud sounded like wood on wood.
I pulled the action. Looked at and wiggled the damper flanges and wires, checked for loose screws, and saw/felt nothing wrong.
With the action still out, I checked the sostenuto, which as had the dampers, been working perfectly.
The sostenuto is a complete mess: dampers lift haphazardly or not at all. (The tabs all look in-line.)
Not having much grand damper repair experience, I returned the action and have stopped.
I've called for reinforcements. I'm afraid this may be a major problem: a broken damper rail flange or even rail itself, broken damper return spring?
Any ideas of what I might be able to check, without taking apart the damper mechanism (and probably making matters worse)?
--I know of nothing more I can do or will do, lest you have a suggestion.
what we know is:
the dampers hang barely above the strings when "at rest,"
the manual lifting of E2 (last damper before the bass strut) makes an audible "click" and then, wood-on-wood "thud" when allowed to drop to its rest position,
the sostenuto is a total mess,
the shift works okay.
I won't touch it, unless it's something easy to check; but, I'd like to have ideas as to what it might be.
Thanks,
Bob T
______________________________________________________________________
A painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence.
At 20:04 -0800 21/1/09, Fenton Murray wrote:
> With let off set and drop too low and the action on the bench.
> Place weights on the key amounting to 5 grams or so over the down weight.
> Let say down weight is about 52, try 56 or 57 grams.
> The key will drop until the drop screw contacts the leather.
> Now, raise the drop and watch the hammer rise, when it stops rising the
jack heal has made contact with it's button.
> You now have simultaneous contact between drop and let off.
Well, I tried it this morning to see what you meant and found it almost
impossible to distinguish between a hammer that is rising at a fraction of a
snail's pace and one that has stopped. But you seem to be saying that
synchronizing the two contacts gives you the correct drop. I don't see how
or why it should and I've never heard of such a rule. Can you explain
further?
JD
Bob Tate wrote:
> Hi people,
>
> I've had to be away because of a bad back--still hurts like crazy.
> _______________
>
> I believe a major problem may have just happened with my Estonia 190.
> I've been working on getting the una corda pedal to be just as I want
it, or rather make certain the hammers hit the strings in just the right place
when it's depressed. (i.e., not how depressed I feel right now)
>
> Here's what happened:
>
> this morning, I made a minor change to a hammer flange position. I put the
action back in the piano.
>
> When I pressed the una corda and let it return, the alignment looked as I
wanted it, the damper barely missed the left string at full una corda. The
shift works properly.
>
> Next, I pushed down the damper pedal.
>
> All the dampers lifted as expected, however, when the pedal was released,
the entire set of dampers hung, just above their "at rest" position.
>
> I checked the action to make certain it was properly seated on the key bed
and in the piano as far back as it could go. It is.
>
> I tried the damper pedal again.
>
> This time, on the damper return, I heard a "creeeek" or rather,
"creekcraaack." And the dampers still hung slightly above their at
rest position.
>
> Not liking that "crack" sound; with the damper pedal not
depressed, I lifted and let drop, each damper head, manually.
>
> All worked as expected, except E2 (the last damper before the end of the
bass bridge and before the bass/treble strut).
> Lifting it, I felt a little, loose up/down and side to side, wobble.
> Letting it drop, maked an audible "click," then,
"thud" as it returned to where it started.
> The thud sounded like wood on wood.
>
> I pulled the action. Looked at and wiggled the damper flanges and wires,
checked for loose screws, and saw/felt nothing wrong.
>
> With the action still out, I checked the sostenuto, which as had the
dampers, been working perfectly.
>
> The sostenuto is a complete mess: dampers lift haphazardly or not at all.
(The tabs all look in-line.)
>
> Not having much grand damper repair experience, I returned the action and
have stopped.
>
> I've called for reinforcements. I'm afraid this may be a major
problem: a broken damper rail flange or even rail itself, broken damper return
spring?
>
> Any ideas of what I might be able to check, without taking apart the
damper mechanism (and probably making matters worse)? --I know of nothing more I
can do or will do, lest you have a suggestion.
>
> what we know is: the dampers hang barely above the strings when "at
rest,"
> the manual lifting of E2 (last damper before the bass strut) makes an
audible "click" and then, wood-on-wood "thud" when allowed
to drop to its rest position,
> the sostenuto is a total mess,
> the shift works okay.
>
> I won't touch it, unless it's something easy to check; but,
I'd like to have ideas as to what it might be.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob T
Loose screws on damper lift tray block??
-- Conrad Hoffsommer, RPT - Keyboard Technician
Luther College, 700 College Dr., Decorah, Iowa 52101-1045
1-(563)-387-1204 // Fax 1-(563)-387-1076
Bob,
Put your cheek blocks in, to locate the action fore
and aft.
Fenton
----- Original Message -----
From:
Bob Tate
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 7:36
AM
Subject: [pianotech] Broken Grand
dampers
Hi people,
I've had to be away because of a bad
back--still hurts like crazy.
_______________
I believe a
major problem may have just happened with my Estonia 190.
I've been working on getting the una corda pedal to be just as I
want it, or rather make certain the hammers hit the strings in just the
right place when it's depressed. (i.e., not how depressed I
feel right now)
Here's what happened:
this morning, I
made a minor change to a hammer flange position. I put the action back
in the piano.
When I pressed the una corda and let it return,
the alignment looked as I wanted it, the damper barely missed the left
string at full una corda. The shift works properly.
Next, I
pushed down the damper pedal.
All the dampers lifted as
expected, however, when the pedal was released, the entire set of
dampers hung, just above their "at rest" position.
I checked the
action to make certain it was properly seated on the key bed and
in the piano as far back as it could go. It is.
I tried the
damper pedal again.
This time, on the damper return, I heard a
"creeeek" or rather, "creekcraaack." And the dampers still hung slightly
above their at rest position.
Not liking that "crack" sound; with
the damper pedal not depressed, I lifted and let drop, each damper
head, manually.
All worked as expected, except E2 (the last
damper before the end of the bass bridge and before the bass/treble
strut).
Lifting it, I felt a little, loose up/down and side to side,
wobble.
Letting it drop, maked an audible "click," then, "thud" as it
returned to where it started.
The thud sounded like wood on
wood.
I pulled the action. Looked at and wiggled the damper
flanges and wires, checked for loose screws, and saw/felt nothing
wrong.
With the action still out, I checked the sostenuto, which
as had the dampers, been working perfectly.
The sostenuto is a
complete mess: dampers lift haphazardly or not at all. (The tabs
all look in-line.)
Not having much grand damper repair
experience, I returned the action and have stopped.
I've called
for reinforcements. I'm afraid this may be a major problem: a broken
damper rail flange or even rail itself, broken damper return
spring?
Any ideas of what I might be able to check, without
taking apart the damper mechanism (and probably making matters
worse)?
--I know of nothing more I can do or will do, lest you
have a suggestion.
what we know is:
the dampers hang
barely above the strings when "at rest,"
the manual lifting of E2
(last damper before the bass strut) makes an audible "click" and then,
wood-on-wood "thud" when allowed to drop to its rest position,
the
sostenuto is a total mess,
the shift works okay.
I won't touch
it, unless it's something easy to check; but, I'd like to have ideas as
to what it might be.
Thanks,
Bob T
______________________________________________________________________
A
painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their
pictures on
silence.
_______________________________________________
pianotech mailing list
pianotech at ptg.org
http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech_ptg.org
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