I do my very best to correctly diagnose the problem before I attempt anything at all. If I saw that the keys for example, were leaning sideways, that's a sign that the balance rail bushings could be worn badly. That in and of itself can cause the key to hang up on itself in that area or at least, to be slower or create a problem. It doesn't take much sometimes to get a key to stick. However, I would also test the flanges and look in the other areas mentioned and more before making a final judgement. I have rebushed only one key to see if it helped rather than the whole set. I suppose that answer depends on the person but, if what I did, does not cure the problem, I do not charge them for it. But, that is a very rare occasion. I can't stand to be stumped. From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Todd Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 4:36 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) Question: In regards to the balance rail bushings needing replacement. Suppose maybe you saw that the balance rail bushings did need replacing, which may be causing the sluggish keys. After replacement and easing, the sluggishness was still there. Would you still charge the customer for the replacement, even though it didn't correct the problem? Doctors/Dentists do it all the time, but I was wondering how we handle it. TODD PIANO WORKS Matthew Todd, Piano Technician (979) 248-9578 <http://www.toddpianoworks.com/> http://www.toddpianoworks.com --- On Sat, 6/13/09, Gerald Groot <tunerboy3 at comcast.net> wrote: From: Gerald Groot <tunerboy3 at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:48 PM Adding weights to the back of any key will obviously result in the key going back down again depending on how much weight is added. It is sort of like a teeter totter. If the teeter totter isn't working right with two people of equal weight, lets say, one side goes up easier than the other, and we were to decide to put a heavier person on one end and a skinny person on the other, the heavier person will wind up going down faster while the skinny person goes flying higher into the air. The heavier person will also have to work harder to get the skinner person to the ground because there is now more "weight" on one end than on the other. Now, did this solve the problem? While it may have appeared to solve it because now it works again, in all reality, no, it really didn't solve what was wrong with the teeter totter. It only made it work. While adding weights to the keys may 'appear' to fix it, IMO, it is however, most likely not the "real" problem. Instead, it is probably just a "quick fix." It will also give the piano a different touch as well as a heavier touch. I agree with Wim in that I too, have never had to add weights to the backs of any Wurlitzer as this has never been the problem with any of them that I've worked on and I have worked on a lot of them in the last 35 years of full time tuning. My bet too, is that it is more a friction problem of some kind. Not a weight problem. While anything is possible, 100% of the time for me on Wurlitzers, weight was not the problem it was always something else. Our job and yours too, is to figure out what part of the action is creating this problem. Whether it be, tight flanges, tighter than what you think they should be, tight key bushings, worn key bushings on the balance rails which will cause them to lean one way or the other and can create a sticking problem, weak springs, broken springs, gummed up balance rail pins, gummed up capstans, slow jacks, wippens with deep grooves in the felts from the capstans, dampers that have created deep grooves in the damper lever felt possibly from being in the wrong angle all along or, incorrectly regulated by another technician etc… Each one of these individual things can and will create a sticking or a slow action problem of some kind. There are dozens of possibilities. The last time I actually placed any weights on any piano was over 30 years ago. It may take time to figure it out. Sometimes, we all need to call in the troupes for assistance to figure out what is causing these problems but, just because weighting 'appears' to solve the problem, that does not mean, that is the problem. I wold look further… Jerry Groot RPT From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Todd Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 6:11 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) That is exactly. I added a weight on one of the problem keys and the issue did resolve! Whippen flanges are fine (I already checked...as stated in my previous e-mail). TODD PIANO WORKS Matthew Todd, Piano Technician (979) 248-9578 <http://www.toddpianoworks.com/> http://www.toddpianoworks.com --- On Sat, 6/13/09, wimblees at aol.com <wimblees at aol.com> wrote: From: wimblees at aol.com <wimblees at aol.com> Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:06 AM Matthew In my 32 years in the business, I have never added weights to a Wurlitzer spinet piano, much less any upright piano, and I've only done this to a couple of grand pianos. I'm not saying your piano doesn't need it, but my advice is to do this (add weights) to ONE key, and see if it solves the problem. I still predict the sluggish key problem are the wippen flanges. Wim -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Todd <toddpianoworks at att.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) Like I said, Wim, I have eliminated all other possibilities, including what you have mentioned. I am, as they say, 99.99% sure the issue is related to key weight. TODD PIANO WORKS Matthew Todd, Piano Technician (979) 248-9578 <http://www.toddpianoworks.com/> http://www.toddpianoworks.com --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> wimblees at aol.com < <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> wimblees at aol.com> wrote: From: <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> wimblees at aol.com < <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> wimblees at aol.com> Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) To: <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pianotech@ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 10:13 PM Matthew Before delving into adding leads, etc, I think you need to re-evaluate the situation, because I don't think this would be a key weight issue, at least not on just one key. There are other reasons why a key doesn't return. First, diagnose the key itself. Make sure it doesn't hang up on anything, including the key bushings, the balance rail hole, or adjacent keys. Compare the key in question with a neighboring key. By pushing down on the back of the key, you should be able to feel a slight difference in resistance. On older pianos, especially spinets where the key has a big angle in it, the balance rail bushing wears out on one side. That will interfere with the key's movement. It would be much easier to rebush just the one side of that key, than to add lead weights. Keith likes jiffy leads, but when I have found keys with jiffy leads, they might help the key move up and down, but they don't solve the real problems. It takes a little bit of exploring, but I've always been able to find the real problem, and solve it. If you're sure it isn't the key, then look at the wippen flange. I know it will be a big hassle, but remove the action, and repin the wippen flange. Don't just add a little lubricant, and make the wippen move up and down. These things have a tendency to work fine outside the piano, and even work with the key disengaged. But for some reason, it is the pining that creates the sluggish key. Unfortunately, if this means taking off the rubber grommets at the ends of the keys, which might be hard, and will break, you're going to have to tell the customer what's involved to solve the sluggish key, and they might opt to put up with the sluggish key. Good luck Wim -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Todd < <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=toddpianoworks@att.net> toddpianoworks at att.net> To: <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pianotech@ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:30 am Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) I went back to the clients home this afternoon top diagnose the sluggish key. Sure enough, it is a key weight issue. I eliminated all other possible issues (such as key bushings, flanges, etc). Now, what is the proper procedure to correct this problem? TODD PIANO WORKS Matthew Todd, Piano Technician (979) 248-9578 <http://www.toddpianoworks.com/> http://www.toddpianoworks.com --- On Fri, 6/5/09, Keith McGavern < <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kam544@allegiance.tv> kam544 at allegiance.tv> wrote: From: Keith McGavern < <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kam544@allegiance.tv> kam544 at allegiance.tv> Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) To: <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pianotech@ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 11:59 PM On Jun 5, 2009, at 6:30 PM, Matthew Todd wrote: > I then held the key and moved the backcheck, and it returned fine. Matthew, I assume in this test you were attempting to eliminate the wippen flange as being the cause of the sluggishness. You may have done this and didn't say it in your post, but you also need to disconnect the bridle strap and hold the hammer assembly towards the strings as well as holding the key to feel sluggishness in the wippen flange when you lift it somewhat up and down. Aside from this test, most likely you have a key weight problem, especially if you do determine the flange centers and the key bushings are basically free. It is not an uncommon situation in some Wurlitzer vertical pianos. Also, nested bushings are very possible as the angle of the keyarm can be quite severe in some of these pianos in the treble section. Sincerely, Keith _____ Make your summer sizzle with <http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000003> fast and easy recipes for the grill. _____ Make your summer sizzle with <http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000003> fast and easy recipes for the grill. _____ <http://www.avast.com/> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. 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