That's right and it is also a given I would think. We have all seen plenty of these in many brands. The point is to correctly diagnose the problem first before attempting a solution. From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Don Mannino Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:55 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) What we should be careful not to forget is that some pianos are not made correctly in the first place. It is normal for upright pianos to have weights at the back side of the key, and some very low end uprights are made without weights to save money. If the down-weight measures 40 grams of less, and there is less than 20 grams up weight, then adding weights to the back side of the key is the correct answer to the problem. Don Mannino ---- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Groot <mailto:tunerboy3 at comcast.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) Adding weights to the back of any key will obviously result in the key going back down again depending on how much weight is added. It is sort of like a teeter totter. If the teeter totter isn't working right with two people of equal weight, lets say, one side goes up easier than the other, and we were to decide to put a heavier person on one end and a skinny person on the other, the heavier person will wind up going down faster while the skinny person goes flying higher into the air. The heavier person will also have to work harder to get the skinner person to the ground because there is now more "weight" on one end than on the other. Now, did this solve the problem? While it may have appeared to solve it because now it works again, in all reality, no, it really didn't solve what was wrong with the teeter totter. It only made it work. While adding weights to the keys may 'appear' to fix it, IMO, it is however, most likely not the "real" problem. Instead, it is probably just a "quick fix." It will also give the piano a different touch as well as a heavier touch. Jerry Groot RPT From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Todd Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 6:11 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) That is exactly. I added a weight on one of the problem keys and the issue did resolve! Whippen flanges are fine (I already checked...as stated in my previous e-mail). TODD PIANO WORKS Matthew Todd, Piano Technician (979) 248-9578 http://www.toddpianoworks.com <http://www.toddpianoworks.com/> --- On Sat, 6/13/09, wimblees at aol.com <wimblees at aol.com> wrote: From: wimblees at aol.com <wimblees at aol.com> Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:06 AM Matthew In my 32 years in the business, I have never added weights to a Wurlitzer spinet piano, much less any upright piano, and I've only done this to a couple of grand pianos. I'm not saying your piano doesn't need it, but my advice is to do this (add weights) to ONE key, and see if it solves the problem. I still predict the sluggish key problem are the wippen flanges. Wim -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Todd <toddpianoworks at att.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) Like I said, Wim, I have eliminated all other possibilities, including what you have mentioned. I am, as they say, 99.99% sure the issue is related to key weight. TODD PIANO WORKS Matthew Todd, Piano Technician (979) 248-9578 http://www.toddpianoworks.com <http://www.toddpianoworks.com/> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, wimblees at aol.com <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> <wimblees at aol.com <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> > wrote: From: wimblees at aol.com <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> <wimblees at aol.com <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wimblees@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) To: pianotech at ptg.org <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pianotech@ptg.org> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 10:13 PM Matthew Before delving into adding leads, etc, I think you need to re-evaluate the situation, because I don't think this would be a key weight issue, at least not on just one key. There are other reasons why a key doesn't return. First, diagnose the key itself. Make sure it doesn't hang up on anything, including the key bushings, the balance rail hole, or adjacent keys. Compare the key in question with a neighboring key. By pushing down on the back of the key, you should be able to feel a slight difference in resistance. On older pianos, especially spinets where the key has a big angle in it, the balance rail bushing wears out on one side. That will interfere with the key's movement. It would be much easier to rebush just the one side of that key, than to add lead weights. Keith likes jiffy leads, but when I have found keys with jiffy leads, they might help the key move up and down, but they don't solve the real problems. It takes a little bit of exploring, but I've always been able to find the real problem, and solve it. If you're sure it isn't the key, then look at the wippen flange. I know it will be a big hassle, but remove the action, and repin the wippen flange. Don't just add a little lubricant, and make the wippen move up and down. These things have a tendency to work fine outside the piano, and even work with the key disengaged. But for some reason, it is the pining that creates the sluggish key. Unfortunately, if this means taking off the rubber grommets at the ends of the keys, which might be hard, and will break, you're going to have to tell the customer what's involved to solve the sluggish key, and they might opt to put up with the sluggish key. Good luck Wim -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Todd <toddpianoworks at att.net <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=toddpianoworks@att.net> > To: pianotech at ptg.org <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:30 am Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) I went back to the clients home this afternoon top diagnose the sluggish key. Sure enough, it is a key weight issue. I eliminated all other possible issues (such as key bushings, flanges, etc). Now, what is the proper procedure to correct this problem? TODD PIANO WORKS Matthew Todd, Piano Technician (979) 248-9578 http://www.toddpianoworks.com <http://www.toddpianoworks.com/> --- On Fri, 6/5/09, Keith McGavern <kam544 at allegiance.tv <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kam544@allegiance.tv> > wrote: From: Keith McGavern <kam544 at allegiance.tv <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kam544@allegiance.tv> > Subject: Re: [pianotech] sluggish (was no subject) To: pianotech at ptg.org <http://us.mc838.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pianotech@ptg.org> Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 11:59 PM On Jun 5, 2009, at 6:30 PM, Matthew Todd wrote: > I then held the key and moved the backcheck, and it returned fine. Matthew, I assume in this test you were attempting to eliminate the wippen flange as being the cause of the sluggishness. You may have done this and didn't say it in your post, but you also need to disconnect the bridle strap and hold the hammer assembly towards the strings as well as holding the key to feel sluggishness in the wippen flange when you lift it somewhat up and down. Aside from this test, most likely you have a key weight problem, especially if you do determine the flange centers and the key bushings are basically free. It is not an uncommon situation in some Wurlitzer vertical pianos. Also, nested bushings are very possible as the angle of the keyarm can be quite severe in some of these pianos in the treble section. Sincerely, Keith _____ Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes <http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000003> for the grill. _____ Make your summer sizzle with fast <http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000003> and easy recipes for the grill. _____ avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com> : Outbound message clean. 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