End of paragraph two I meant to say “a warm dark sound in that situation may not be that good.” David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:00 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] idol voicing I’ve heard two Yamaha CFIIIs recently that I thought were excellent sounding pianos. One is at Mills College in Oakland, the piano was formerly at Lucas Film recording studios, and another one is at the San Francisco Ballet. Both are exceptionally good sounding instruments. They are Yamahas and have a sound that can be somewhat identified with them. This is the difficulty in a discussion like this. The ideal voice for a piano (recording eq gimmicks aside) depends on a number of different factors not least of which are the design of the piano and the taste of the listener. I don’t think anyone would argue that zing, ping, clang, crash and sizzle is desirable but I wouldn’t characterize the CFIIIs that I’ve liked that way—not when prepared well. Comparing them to a Steinway is a bit awkward because they really aren’t at all alike in terms of design or intent. Moreover, you really have to state which Steinway you are trying to compare it to. The D is really unlike the smaller models in terms of scale design and, theoretically anyway, soundboard and rib design. The rims of Steinways are different from Yamahas and dictate a different approach in terms of scale, soundboard, rib scale, and hammer. My own personal taste, while relevant in setting up a spec piano, is less relevant when dealing with a customer piano or a piano that is other than the type of piano that I might spec on. Personally, I think Yamaha does what it does very well and with pretty good predictability. Though it may not be my personal taste, it does work. I’ve heard many recordings made with Yamaha pianos that I found little to complain about. While the tone may be brighter or more percussive than I prefer, there is often nice clarity that can be totally suitable for certain types of musical expression. The amplified, pop sound of the piano on American Idol, btw, probably doesn’t really fairly represent the real possibilities of that piano but rather a particular sound that they are after. A warm and dark sound in that situation may be that good. I’m not sure that trying to nail down an ideal sound for a piano isn’t a bit of chasing the untamed ornithoid (also known as a wild goose). Optimal tone is a moving target because it can’t be separated from the particular instrument that is delivering it and differences will often exist both between and within specific designs. Aiming for a warm dark sound may be very appropriate for a Steinway (though some might disagree) but may not be appropriate for a Yamaha. Either piano, when prepared properly, in keeping with the realistic range of tonal possibilities of that particular instrument and in the hands of a skilled player can deliver a high level of musicality. In choosing an ideal we must ultimately consider what works and our ears need to be able to adapt accordingly. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of erwinspiano at aol.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:57 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] idol voicing Hi Dean I do watch the show & I dislike the sound of the piano intensely. It's shut it's all the things David said it is. I'm not found of the sound of Yam concert grands. No offense to whoever, but the sound is boring. For me When I am voicing int eh average home I want to hear the silk or velvet in the sound. Many hammers are to to train to do that for prolonged period of time. Dean I want a big tone a dark with clarity & with out much impact noise. I hate a preponderance of zing, ping, clang,crash & sizzle. If voicing is first focus don bringing out the fundamental frequency the higher harmonic/partials will shift down as more of the energy feeds the primary pulse wave of the string. The string hammer contact time changes during this process. I realize this isn't a sound but it is a real concept. This is why shoulder voicing in denser pressed hammers is so necessary. It must be made into a spring. Dean, I understand your frustration. I'm not sure this helped. I wish you could stand along side one of us while we file & vocie a 30 year old Kawai hammers with a good board & lsiten to it go from percussive popping pain to singing sustaining beauty. Get the entire cd from David A. with Mike Garson on our redesigned & custom restored Stwy D recorded at the Atelier. Fantastic. Dale I’m listening through a satellite signal, surround stereo wi th subwoofer. I do understand your point, that the sound I’m hearing is not the actual sound of the piano. I guess my request is: pretend that it is. What could be done to fix it or does it need fixed (assuming you watched the show and heard the piano)? Dean Dean May cell 812.239.3359 PianoRebuilders.com 812.235.5272 Terre=2 0Haute IN 47802 _____ Hi Dean----some questions: ---what speakers are you hearing it through? ---is it just through the the TV, or is there an external amp and system involved? Speaking in a highly simplified manner, the sound you hear is NOT the sound that's coming out of the piano. The signal you hear has been digitally compressed several times along its signal path before it gets to your ears; has lost both real low and real high frequencies; has20had upper midrange frequencies boosted, sometimes in sonically ugly ways. That said, a majority of pianos used in a "pop" situation sound way too bright, clangy, and metallic for my taste---it's like, why not use a digital keyboard if you want that sound? But that's just the way it is: every person grew up with a different "ideal" piano sound; if your tonal memory of great piano sound was formed by Bruce Hornsby and David Foster-produced records, that snarling, lo-fi GH1B sound is just perfect. Every head is a tonal planet: different gravity, different atmosphere. Listen to the pianos on the recordings on my website. We try to capture the brilliance and percussive aspect of the instrument AS WELL AS the golden and throaty aspect. Those recording are, as a whole, pretty good representations of how the pianos actually sound----IF you are listening on decent speakers..... 0A Hope this helps..... David A. On Mar 30, 2009, at 8:45 AM, Dean May wrote: Voicing has always been a difficult subject for me and I think many other technicians. Uppermost is the question, exactly what kind of tone are we trying to achieve? For those of us who have not had the benefit of working alongside a master concert prep technician we are left with exploring what is pleasing to us and our customers, who most often are happy to leave well enough alone. So when Dale Erwin, David Anderson, Ric Brenke, et al, use words on this list to describe a wonderful tonal palate of some hammer’s sound, I’m sorta left wondering what that sound really is as I am not there experiencing it. Having said all that as way of introduction, I found myself watching American Idol last week. This is a show I have studiously avoided watching as I vigorously disagree with the premise that a true artist’s career can only be launched by winning the fickle public’s voting lottery. This year they seem to have some good candidates as finalists, and several of them are making use of a 9 foot Yamaha grand. Since I suspect many of you have watched the show, I’d be pleased if you would chime in on what you thought of this piano’s sound. Myself, I do not care much for it. I find it too percussive and shallow, sounding more like a GH-1B than what it seems like a 9 footer should sound. I don’t know if it is a hammer issue, a microphone issue, or a mixing issue. It might be instructive for us less experience voicers out here if some of you more experienced ones could tell us your opinions of this piano. Perhaps, if you are aware of other high profile pianos on TV shows, you could comment on those as well. Dean Dean May cell 812.239.3359 PianoRebuilders.com 812.235.5272 Terre Haute IN 47802 _____ Get there faster with the MapQuest Toolbar. <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?ncid=emlwemqmq00000004> Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech_ptg.org/attachments/20090330/9f89fb54/attachment-0001.html>
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