[pianotech] Lyre Damage

[David Ilvedson]

Is Steinway the only keybed that is planed for a curve?   That isn't this upward warp you are seeing...?   I have to admit I have not noticed this...but it seems it would certainly show in the regulation...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044

----- Original message ----------------------------------------
From: "William Truitt" <surfdog at metrocast.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Received: 11/26/2009 11:23:03 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lyre Damage


>Let me re-ask my question again, Ron.  To what other possible causal agents
>could you possibly attribute the upward distortion of the keybed that we so
>often see? 

>What would qualify as "reasonable evidence" of a direct causal relationship
>between setting the piano down on the lyre and keybed warpage?  Both Al and
>I have given instances of observation soon enough after such a move that any
>other cause is unlikely, and the lyre is the most obvious suspect. Neither
>of us are trying to make the leap of saying that all instances of warped
>keybeds are caused by setting the piano on the lyre, only that we have a
>particular instance where doing so is the only reasonable suspect.  As to
>how many instances are caused by setting the piano on the lyre, you and I
>share essentially the same incomplete knowledge, regardless of our position.
>We rely on anecdotal information and hopefully good logic, because we don't
>have much else to go on.

>David, I don't doubt that a great many pianos are moved by setting the piano
>on the lyre, and no harm comes of it.  Lots of movers do it that way with no
>ill effects (at least most of the time).   A Steinway is a substantially
>built piano with a thick keybed.  But there are plenty of Crappendorfer
>pianos out there where the keybed is as insubstantial as the rest of the
>piano, and as cheaply made.  And less tolerant of insult than the better
>made instruments.  

>As for the side stresses on the treble leg, fair enough.  Perhaps one could
>even say it is a question of choose your poison, but you have to choose one
>because you have to move the piano.  One way to lessen that stress is to
>make sure that you spin the caster wheel on that leg so that the wheel is
>facing outward and away from the rim.  Otherwise, at a certain point in
>lowering the piano down at the bass end, the wheel will spin on its own to
>achieve that position, suddenly and with a little jolt, adding more stress
>than needs to be there.

>That said, I have never seen a broken treble leg from setting the piano on
>its side.  I have seen plenty of broken lyres, though.  The treble leg
>usually breaks before that, when I drag the piano across the shag carpeting
>sideways without taking any weight off the legs :-0

>For me, it is not hard to draw the following conclusion:  IF it is true that
>some instances of keybed warpage exist due to setting the piano on the lyre,
>whether caused by poor and rough technique, the insubstantiality of the
>keybed, or both; AND IF it is true that simple, quick, easy, and safe
>methods exist that remove the need to set the piano on the lyre when moving
>and risk such damage, THEN wouldn't it be true that said methods would be a
>better and safer choice for moving a piano? (Logic 101 - if A is true, and B
>is true, it follows that C must be true)

>If one were so inclined, it probably would not be too difficult to set up a
>long straight edge with a dial guage or digital caliper to take measurements
>of deflection, both temporary or permanent, on a number of pianos, just to
>see how much the keybed actually changes when doing a move.

>Will



> 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
>Of Ron Nossaman
>Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 12:52 PM
>To: pianotech at ptg.org
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lyre Damage

>David Love wrote:
>> Anecdotal information is difficult to draw conclusions from but I have
>> countless pianos come through my shop annually and I follow all of them to
>> the customer's home--95% Steinway pianos.  They get knocked down with the
>> lyre with a heavy blanket underneath to rock the piano over (that's how my
>> mover does it) unless it's a Louis or something else where the lyre is
>very
>> fragile.  When I get to the customer's home I just don't find any problems
>> with bedding, regulation or anything else associated with the move.
>Changes
>> in temperature and humidity from my shop environment to their home
>> environment can cause some tuning issues but since they pianos are often
>> newly strung it's difficult to separate that out.  Other than that I just
>> don't see problems.  

>This is exactly my point. Eliminate the one "maybe" instance 
>in an entire career, the "I believe", the "surely it must", 
>and the outright "Because I say so" assertions with no 
>reasonable evidence, and we're left with a whole lot of 
>(mostly unobserved) cases where no detrimental change took 
>place as a result of using the lyre. I like the lyre brace 
>that Andrew posted, and the piano horse, a lot because they 
>both are intended to make the move easier and protect the lyre 
>from damage at least to some extent. Of all the traffic on 
>lists through the years about the horrors of rocking down on 
>the lyre, I don't recall a single word of concern from anyone 
>about the considerable side stress put on the treble leg when 
>the lyre isn't used. Have any of you out there considered the 
>PSI load on that leg plate connection with the weight of the 
>piano levering the leg out at that angle? Why doesn't that 
>concern anyone?

>I always wonder why any one of many possible concerns 
>arbitrarily becomes *the* one to crusade against.
>Ron N