I agree that manufacturers need to do a bit more before shipping out their instruments. Were it not for the hard work of technicians doing extensive prep, their pianos would likely never leave the showroom! We cannot change what the manufacturers do except to give input and feedback consistently. Will they listen to technicians? Some manufacturers will not, and others will. The ones who will we will likely find to come out on top in the long run. Perhaps a quick fix to the problem, budget depending, is to hire a freshly trained technician who can regulate, voice and tune so that other work can be done in the shop or on the road. A few years back, Laurie Cote told me that that's how he got his start in the business, and working on new pianos really helped him hone his skills as a young and aspiring technician. If it's within your means as a dealer, it may save you money in the long run, and - more importantly - some sanity. Elizabeth Snow Boston PTG Chapter Secretary > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Scott Jackson <scottwaynejackson at gmail.com> > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:09:29 +1100 > Subject: Re: [pianotech] To Don, Mark, and Roger. Was Jeannie, etc. > Amen > Scott Jackson > > > William Truitt wrote: > >> but until you have walked in our shoes, you shouldn't presume to know what >> the dealer's responsibilities should be. Dealer prep is the dealer's >> responsibility and should be done, but where do the manufacturers >> responsibilities end and the dealers begin? >> >> Will Truitt >> >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Gerald Groot" <tunerboy3 at comcast.net> > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:51:51 -0500 > Subject: Re: [pianotech] To Don, Mark, and Roger. Was Jeannie, etc. > Good points Will. I was thinking that same thing regarding how pianos > arrived to dealers in the first place from the factories when writing my > input. I just didn't put it in there but it is very true. They most > certainly could arrive more ready for the sale or very close to it to begin > with. After all, they built the product. It appears, quality control for > the final prepped product prior to leaving the factory is lacking at many > level's at some manufacturer's - some more than others - prior to the > departure of THEIR product. > > The best pianos we had that arrived in the best condition were Yamaha's. > Much of the time, we had to do very little to them including tuning. These > were the Yamaha's that were arriving from Japan. Those arriving from > America on the other hand, we had a whole lot more prep work to do to get > them up to where they belonged. > > I've noticed that the dealers not using RPT's seem to deliver pianos in > much > worse condition and seem to have poorer follow up care than those that > carry > RPT's. The bottom line on this is that it costs them less to hire non > RPT's. But, at the same time, it seems to me they suffer more at the > expense of the unhappy customer who will not likely recommend their product > or them. Here anyway, we found these seemed to be the first ones to go out > of business. > > My dealer sold Baldwins, Universal player pianos, Aeolian products, > Yamaha's, Story & Clarks and others over the years finally dropping Baldwin > because they were arriving in such poorly prepped condition. It cost him > more to prep and fix things than it was worth for him to sell them he said. > > > Jer Groot > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of William Truitt > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:12 AM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] To Don, Mark, and Roger. Was Jeannie, etc. > > It doesn't necessarily pay for itself. I was a Baldwin and Young Chang > dealer for 7 years, as well as being a RPT technician for last 27 years. I > always sent my pianos out in good condition to my customers, doing the > dealer prep, which too often consisted of regulation and voicing far beyond > anything what the dealer should be expected to do. I spent 2 to 3 days > regulating each Baldwin Grand I had in my store. Most of this time was > uncompensated by the manufacturer, which meant that I was doing it for free > on just about every piano that came into my store. I did it because I felt > that the pianos were arriving not ready for prime time and were unsalable > without this attention. So it was in my self interest to do it, was good > for my reputation and did help me sell some pianos, but that is still a far > cry from the same thing as it paying for itself. Instead, it was one more > thing that attacks the bottom line and makes it harder to be profitable in > a > > business that is very hard to make money in the first place. Spending so > much time doing prep takes you away from other things that are profitable, > like rebuilding work in shop or outside tuning work. I was lazy, so I > limited myself to working 80 hours a week. > > I don't want to impugn the manufacturers, I have respect for them and > sympathy for their difficulties in these times and others, but the dark > underbelly of all this has been that too many (but not all) manufacturers > deliberately offloaded this work to the dealers so that they didn’t have to > pay somebody to do it. That puts the dealer in the position of either > ignoring it, which many do; or working for free on piano after piano. > > Some of you will say, well you can write that into the cost of the piano. > It's a very competitive, dollar driven business. Sometimes you can squeeze > that into the price, but mostly you can't. When you can't, you are working > for free. My reward for being so conscientious is that I get to work for > free, again and again and again! Isn't that a wonderful business model? > > I never lied to my customers, and when there were problems after sale I > took > > care of the customer. I mean no disrespect to my dear technician friends, > but until you have walked in our shoes, you shouldn't presume to know what > the dealer's responsibilities should be. Dealer prep is the dealer's > responsibility and should be done, but where do the manufacturers > responsibilities end and the dealers begin? > > Will Truitt > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > > Of Scott Helms, RPT > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 5:30 AM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] To Don, Mark, and Roger. Was Jeannie, etc. > > Interesting that you mention that, Gregor. I work for a dealer who, like > the one Jer worked for, makes sure that every piano is prepped and tuned > before it leaves the store. He has a prep checklist that the techs use on > each piano before it goes out. It's not a different list for each brand, > because they all need to be in the same condition when they leave. Some > pianos do need more prep than others, but since it's the same intended end > result, you can use just one checklist and if a given piano doesn't need a > certain step in the list, you just check it off and move on to the next > thing on the list. This dealer's reputation is also very good, and he > sells a lot of pianos because of the prep that's put into his pianos - > same experience as Jer. Incidentally, the vast majority of the techs who > work for him are RPTs. Hmmmm, do we sense a pattern here? I do think it > would be helpful for manufacturers to stress THIS point to dealers - if > you prep the pianos well, you'll sell more pianos. It pays for itself. > > Scott > ------ > Scott A. Helms, Registered Piano Technician > 480-818-3871 > www.helmsmusic.net > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it would help to give the dealers a script in writing what > exactly > > > he is expected to to. Prepping is a great word. Does it mean that Joe > > Sixpack does not notice small failures or does it mean that the piano > > meets the standard of the manufacturer? Some brands need more prepping > > than others. So, why not to hand out a script, just like a pre-flight > > check list in aviation? > > > > Gregor > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > piano technician - tuner - dealer > > M¨¹nster, Germany > > www.weldert.de > > > > > > > > > > From: tunerboy3 at comcast.net > > To: pianotech at ptg.org > > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:12:47 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [pianotech] To Don, Mark, and Roger. Was Jeannie, etc. > > > "This is where I think you, and the marketing > > department, can do a much better job educating your dealers. From the > > posts you > > have written, it appears you are taking the attitude that the stores are > > doing > > what they can to service the pianos, and that my suggestion that dealers > > be > > required to hire trained technicians to properly prep pianos, is not > > realistic. > > I¡¯m sorry, but as has been shown here on the list, most technicians are > > of the > > opinion that stores, for the most part, do not seem to care about service > > before the sale. Perhaps when stores are required to hire trained > > technicians > > to properly prep pianos before they leave the store, we would not be > > having > > this discussion." > > > > > > > > I would like to add my input on dealer prep as well. When I > > worked for a dealer 30 years ago, his pianos were not allowed out of the > > store > > unless every single one of them regardless of quality, were prepped > > according > > to the dealer's specs and to his liking. He had very high standards. > > This particular > > dealer happened to be an RPT and was a stickler for quality. He sold a > > LOT of > > pianos I think, due to the fact not only of his reputation after the sale > > but > > for his reputation before the sale as well. If it wasn't right, it > didn't > > > go out, > > period. > > > > > > > > I cannot begin to count the amount of times people came in remarking > > about how much better his pianos sounded (they were always in tune) and > > played > > than the competition in and out of our city, than any other they had > heard > > > and > > then bought his, because of this. Of course, consequently, we had very > > little > > problems after the sale but, as I said, if and when we did, he fixed them > > immediately with no questions asked. Customer service and customer > > happiness > > was his ultimate goal for more future recommedations from these same > > clients > > and therefore, more future sales. It was, a win, win situation for all. > > Happy > > customers and lots of referrals. > > > > > > > > I believe dealers would sell more pianos today if all pianos regardless > > of quality, were properly prepped and tuned. I know we as the techs in > > the > > field would most certainly have a lot less problems, dealers would have a > > lot > > less complaints from us as would the manufacturer's. It seems to me, > this > > > would be a money saver for all parties involved long term. > > > > > > > > Recently, I looked at a very nice, good quality, used piano at a > > dealer. I was hired by the individual that was looking to buy the piano. > > This > > particular piano was prepped, tuned and voiced but, unfortunately, it was > > not > > prepped and voiced as good as it could have been. Cutting corners and > > saving > > money seems to be the ultimate goal in many instances today. I was > > called in > > by a professional pianist that noticed the difference in the touch and > > sound on > > this piano. The very first questions she asked me was, what the problem > > was, could > > it be corrected and especially, WHY was it NOT corrected prior to her 2nd > > and > > 3rd visits there when she had already mentioned it to the dealer after > the > > > first visit? Instead, it appears, the dealer chose to tell her that it > > had > > been corrected after the 2nd time when in fact, nothing had apparently > > been > > changed. Trying to fool a client is not advisable. > > > > > > > > As always, I gave my honest opinion that the piano could be > > improved with 3 or 4 more hours of mating and voicing and touch up > > regulation and > > should be improved on the spot before, rather than after the sale adding > > that > > the piano would be a fine instrument afterward. However, I think they > > lost the > > sale. She didn't trust the dealer totally after that. It is one thing > to > > > tell > > someone that it can be improved and will be. It is quite another, do > > actually > > do so. > > > > > > > > These days, I encounter more improperly unprepped pianos than > > ever before. I complete the prep in the field and either collect from > the > > > manufacturer, or from the dealer. Either way, it would be nice to see > > better > > prepped pianos coming out. It seems to me that over all, it would save > > both > > the dealer and manufacture not only face but, money long term by having > > properly prepped pianos. > > > > > > > > Jer Groot RPT > > > > > > > > > > > > From: > > pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf > Of > > wimblees at aol.com > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 5:26 PM > > > > To: Pianotech at PTG.org; caut at ptg.org > > > > Subject: [pianotech] To Don, Mark, and Roger. Was Jeannie, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I¡¯m sending this to both Pianotech and CAUT, because there have > > been discussion about dealer service on both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, Mark, & Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This post is directed not only at you, but also all the factory > > representatives that teach at PTG sponsored seminars and technical > > institutes. > > But since you three have been monitoring this list, and since you were > > involved > > in the recent discussion between ¡°us¡± and ¡°you¡±, I want to address > > this to you > > three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me start by saying thank you, for al the time and effort you > > give teaching at the seminars. From what I understand, although your > > expenses > > are basically paid, the time you spend on the road, away from your > family, > > > is > > all part of the job description, and you are expected to teach at these > > seminars over and above your ¡°day¡± job. So, again, thank you for all > > your > > dedication to this industry. It is much appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>From what has been posted over the past several weeks, the basic > > problem seems to be getting dealers to properly prepare your pianos > before > > > they > > leave the store. There seems to be a dichotomy here. The manufactures > > spend a > > considerable amount of money sending you to seminars and conventions to > > teach > > us how to properly take care of your pianos. Yet your company does little > > to > > educate the dealers on the importance of hiring and properly compensating > > trained technician to prepare your pianos before the leave the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although there are exceptions, dealers, for the most part, hire > > untrained, inexperienced piano tuners to just barely tune the pianos on > > the > > floor, and are reluctant to allow repairs, much less regulations, to be > > done to > > a piano unless it¡¯s absolutely necessary. As a long as a customer > doesn't > > > complain, pianos are sent out ¡°as is¡±, and the dealer crosses his > finger > > > that > > the customer will not notice. Then when the customer asked one of us tune > > the piano, and discovers the problems, we have to jump through hoops to > > get the > > dealer to pay for the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I¡¯ve been arguing, yet you think I don¡¯t seem to understand, > > is that as long as there is no directive from the manufacturer, stores > > will not > > change the way they operate. We want to work with you, and we want what > is > > > best > > for our customer. But the relationship between us and the dealers are > > sometimes > > strained, because we want to do things to the piano to > > > > > > > > > > > > make it play and sound right, that the dealers don¡¯t want to pay > > for. The only time they are willing to pay, is when they can get > > reimbursed by > > the manufacturer. But the manufactures want documentation from us on > > what¡¯s > > going to be done, prior to it being done, and we must get permission from > > the > > dealers to do the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand the need for this procedure, but if pianos were > > properly prepped in the store before they left there, there would be very > > little need for us to do warrantee work in the field in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to train us, and we want work on your pianos. Yet the > > middle man, the dealer, doesn't seem to know, or care, about that > > relationship. > > Unless, and until, the manufactures start insisting that pianos should be > > prepped by properly compensated, factory authorized and trained > > technicians, > > before they leave the store, dealers will not do their part to make sure > > the > > pianos are ready for the customer to accept. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is where I think you, and the marketing department, can do a > > much better job educating your dealers. From the posts you have written, > > it > > appears you are taking the attitude that the stores are doing what they > > can to > > service the pianos, and that my suggestion that dealers be required to > > hire > > trained technicians to properly prep pianos, is not realistic. I¡¯m > sorry, > > > but > > as has been shown here on the list, most technicians are of the opinion > > that > > stores, for the most part, do not seem to care about service before the > > sale. > > Perhaps when stores are required to hire trained technicians to properly > > prep > > pianos before they leave the store, we would not be having this > > discussion. > > > Willem (Wim) Blees, RPT > > > > Piano Tuner/Technician > > > 94-505 Kealakaa Str. > > > Mililani, Oahu, HI 96789 > > > > 808-349-2943 > > > www.Bleespiano.com > > > > Author of: > > > > The Business of Piano Tuning > > > > available from Potter Press > > > > www.pianotuning.com > > > > > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > > Virus Database (VPS): 091126-1, 11/26/2009 > > Tested on: 11/26/2009 8:12:47 PM > > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > http://redirect.gimas.net/?n=M0911xIE2 > > Sicher ist besser. 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