David, This sounds nearly exactly like what I do. I just didn't take the time to write it out. Thanks. Also, in my previous reply, I didn't mean to suggest we don't take parts costs or other ancillary costs into account. Wim, Yes there is a formula. In truth there are many formulas. There's one in your book. There are others in other's books. You seem to believe that your book is THE authority on anything related to piano business. It's a fine book, I have it and have read it, and I have grown from it. But it is only one way. There are others and for you to continually suggest that something other than your way is unethical, inappropriate, or in any other way wrong is pure hubris. In my world, as it seems in David's and others, the RATE doesn't change, but the COST of a particular job may, depending upon difficulties. In other words, I don't charge $X/hr for one client and $2X for another. But, replacing a pinblock that is mortised into the sides of the case and requires removal of parts of the inner rim, with associated replacement and reveneering (Think HFMiller) costs more than a Steinway block, or a Baldwin block. It's not as simple as just "replacing the block," and it's silly to suggest that these things are ALWAYS all equal. You may disagree with me, and that is fine, I have no argument with you that you choose to do things differently. But please do not ever presume, suggest, imply, etc., that the way I set my fees or run my business is unethical, unfair, unprofessional or otherwise "wrong." I assure you I am very thorough and very conscientious in my estimates and pricing. I'm comfortable doing things the way I do BECAUSE I know them to be ethical, and I know I do a very fine job of keeping my clients best interests at heart. You may not have intended your words to be interpreted as I have, but over time and reading your many posts to the list, that is indeed the impact they have had on me. William R. Monroe On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>wrote: > We’re basically contractors. There are two ways to price: Fixed bid or > time and materials (or a combination of both which can be appropriate). > Where you are able to accurately predict the time, flat bid is better > because customers are more comfortable with knowing what the cost will be > upfront and you’ll lose fewer new customers who are uncomfortable with the > uncertainty. Some jobs, such as regulation and voicing, can’t be done on a > fixed bid because there is too much variability in the requirements. In > that case time and materials is more appropriate and the customer should be > given a range so that they know what they are likely to have to pay. If you > leave it totally open ended they won’t be comfortable and may very well not > hire you. Larger jobs such as rebuilding an action or a belly are more > complicated. If you’ve done a lot of them and have a standard procedure you > can do it on a fixed bid. Even if you haven’t done a lot of them a fixed > bid is probably appropriate because it would be wrong to charge them a > premium based on your inexperience and therefore your inefficiency. On both > of those I provide a fixed bid with caveats. The caveat is I might discover > something when I take everything apart that might require some additional > cost. Since most of the jobs I do are all inclusive (I don’t do partial > jobs or try and cut corners) they are fairly predictable. But there are > occasionally things that come up. I guarantee a price within 5% of the > fixed bid mostly to cover variations in material costs. Above that requires > an approval from the customer. In the terms of my agreements this is all > spelled out including the fact that there are some unknown factors. Most of > what we do, however, bushing jobs, backcheck replacement, replacing a set of > bass strings, can all be done (or should be able to be) on a predictable > basis and so the cost can be anticipated. For customers fixed cost is best > but it requires some experience on the part of the tech so as not to get > burned. Usually those same experienced techs are also faster and more > efficient. Time and materials is usually better for the tech because they > aren’t constrained by a bid which might have been done in error but are more > uncomfortable for the customer since they have no idea what they will end up > paying. It’s up to us to choose the most appropriate form of estimating > that suits the situation balancing covering our own interests (time and > money) against the customer’s interests (time, quality and cost). Balancing > those three items is tricky (time, quality and cost). Customers always want > all three, that is shortest time, highest quality and lowest cost. They > can’t have all three. Shortest time and highest quality will result in > higher cost. Highest quality and lowest cost will require the longest time > (as the work will be done when there is nothing else competing for the > time). Shortest time and lowest cost will result in lower quality. Don’t > get caught promising all three. > > > > David Love > > www.davidlovepianos.com > > > In a message dated 7/21/10 9:49:40 PM, bill at a440piano.net writes: > > > ??Formula?? > > Hours x Hourly wage = price > > Thing is, hours is variable from one piano to another so there are > additions/subtractions, and my skill is reflected in my hourly wage. Of > course it's not arbitrary, no one has suggested that. Not me, not Jack, not > anyone. We each determine a cost of a job in our own way, reflecting our > own experiences and skill levels, either as a straight hourly rate or some > configuration that involves hours, difficulties, hazards, etc., etc. Just > because I don't understand how Jack or anyone else arrives at their prices, > doesn't invalidate them. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20100722/426cdd09/attachment.htm>
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