In my world, as it seems in David's and others, the RATE doesn't change, but the COST of a particular job may, depending upon difficulties. William You and I are saying the same thing, only in different ways. From what I gleamed you were saying before, it sounded like you were charging different rates for different types of work. But from what you just said, you are doing what I do. Which is exactly what I have been "preaching". There is nothing wrong with charging more for difficult work, if the work takes longer. What I objected to is charging more "per hour" for more difficult work. Take the pin block job, for instance. I have one price for most jobs, where the pin block is attached to the plate. I charge more for Steinway blocks, because they are attached to the stretcher with dowels, etc. And I charge more for mortised pin blocks, like Bechsteins. More work, more pay. Wim -----Original Message----- From: William Monroe <bill at a440piano.net> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Thu, Jul 22, 2010 5:18 am Subject: Re: [pianotech] Charging by job, or by hour? David, This sounds nearly exactly like what I do. I just didn't take the time to write it out. Thanks. Also, in my previous reply, I didn't mean to suggest we don't take parts costs or other ancillary costs into account. Wim, Yes there is a formula. In truth there are many formulas. There's one in your book. There are others in other's books. You seem to believe that your book is THE authority on anything related to piano business. It's a fine book, I have it and have read it, and I have grown from it. But it is only one way. There are others and for you to continually suggest that something other than your way is unethical, inappropriate, or in any other way wrong is pure hubris. In my world, as it seems in David's and others, the RATE doesn't change, but the COST of a particular job may, depending upon difficulties. In other words, I don't charge $X/hr for one client and $2X for another. But, replacing a pinblock that is mortised into the sides of the case and requires removal of parts of the inner rim, with associated replacement and reveneering (Think HFMiller) costs more than a Steinway block, or a Baldwin block. It's not as simple as just "replacing the block," and it's silly to suggest that these things are ALWAYS all equal. You may disagree with me, and that is fine, I have no argument with you that you choose to do things differently. But please do not ever presume, suggest, imply, etc., that the way I set my fees or run my business is unethical, unfair, unprofessional or otherwise "wrong." I assure you I am very thorough and very conscientious in my estimates and pricing. I'm comfortable doing things the way I do BECAUSE I know them to be ethical, and I know I do a very fine job of keeping my clients best interests at heart. You may not have intended your words to be interpreted as I have, but over time and reading your many posts to the list, that is indeed the impact they have had on me. William R. Monroe On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> wrote: We’re basically contractors. There are two ways to price: Fixed bid or time and materials (or a combination of both which can be appropriate). Where you are able to accurately predict the time, flat bid is better because customers are more comfortable with knowing what the cost will be upfront and you’ll lose fewer new customers who are uncomfortable with the uncertainty. Some jobs, such as regulation and voicing, can’t be done on a fixed bid because there is too much variability in the requirements. In that case time and materials is more appropriate and the customer should be given a range so that they know what they are likely to have to pay. If you leave it totally open ended they won’t be comfortable and may very well not hire you. Larger jobs such as rebuilding an action or a belly are more complicated. If you’ve done a lot of them and have a standard procedure you can do it on a fixed bid. Even if you haven’t done a lot of them a fixed bid is probably appropriate because it would be wrong to charge them a premium based on your inexperience and therefore your inefficiency. On both of those I provide a fixed bid with caveats. The caveat is I might discover something when I take everything apart that might require some additional cost. Since most of the jobs I do are all inclusive (I don’t do partial jobs or try and cut corners) they are fairly predictable. But there are occasionally things that come up. I guarantee a price within 5% of the fixed bid mostly to cover variations in material costs. Above that requires an approval from the customer. In the terms of my agreements this is all spelled out including the fact that there are some unknown factors. Most of what we do, however, bushing jobs, backcheck replacement, replacing a set of bass strings, can all be done (or should be able to be) on a predictable basis and so the cost can be anticipated. For customers fixed cost is best but it requires some experience on the part of the tech so as not to get burned. Usually those same experienced techs are also faster and more efficient. Time and materials is usually better for the tech because they aren’t constrained by a bid which might have been done in error but are more uncomfortable for the customer since they have no idea what they will end up paying. It’s up to us to choose the most appropriate form of estimating that suits the situation balancing covering our own interests (time and money) against the customer’s interests (time, quality and cost). Balancing those three items is tricky (time, quality and cost). Customers always want all three, that is shortest time, highest quality and lowest cost. They can’t have all three. Shortest time and highest quality will result in higher cost. Highest quality and lowest cost will require the longest time (as the work will be done when there is nothing else competing for the time). Shortest time and lowest cost will result in lower quality. Don’t get caught promising all three. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com In a message dated 7/21/10 9:49:40 PM, bill at a440piano.net writes: In a message dated 7/21/10 9:49:40 PM, bill at a440piano.net writes: ??Formula?? Hours x Hourly wage = price Thing is, hours is variable from one piano to another so there are additions/subtractions, and my skill is reflected in my hourly wage. Of course it's not arbitrary, no one has suggested that. Not me, not Jack, not anyone. We each determine a cost of a job in our own way, reflecting our own experiences and skill levels, either as a straight hourly rate or some configuration that involves hours, difficulties, hazards, etc., etc. Just because I don't understand how Jack or anyone else arrives at their prices, doesn't invalidate them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20100722/71eaa996/attachment.htm>
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC