Hey Will, Nice work! Now, just to be clear: let's say you applied your "fix" to a whip wherein the hammer rise out of check was much too strong and difficult to regulate. So, applying the '"fix" only, with no other regulation at all, not only slowed down the cranky hammer rise, but at the same time made further adjustment (and hopefully little of that) of the spring more sure and more "normal". Is that right? Because if it is, then the fix also maintains a snappy jack, as well as a properly spring-loaded system from check. Good news! (Uh, except for all the extra work we now have to do on new parts!) I just inspected a hard-bushed WNG whip from my system. Yes, the spring moves a good deal in its plastic core / center (these whippens do not appear to have center pins as such). Tomorrow I will try the "Truitt WNG Whip Fix" (T W W F) and report back. Let's give it a whirl. Question 1: are your jacks now snappy and sure? Question 2: have you checked the rep lever (spring disengaged) for torque using the gram spring gage? As they are now, WNG rep levers resist 8 or 9 grams when the spring gage finger is applied at the end of the drop screw leather. Typical readings on standard wood reps is about 2 grams. (I know, for you purists out there, this is not a true torque reading, but it is easy to do, and easy to communicate). Whatever your reading is, it won't be a "right-or-wrong" thing, but more of a "it-is-what-it-is" thing. Question 3: any concerns that the pin and cloth will, with time, "walk out" of the post hole? I guess not since old S&S whippens were set up per your fix --- neither lateral nor back-and-forth motion can be detected. Old S&S (teflon) rep springs do not move much, but do a bit more than the cloth set up. Extra whips I have around the shop, Tokiwa and Renner, have rep springs that move at the coils noticeably, but not nearly as much as the WNGs. Finally, good work informing Jerry at WNG of your investigations. Cheers On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:14 PM, William Truitt <surfdog at metrocast.net>wrote: > To Nick and others who have been following the thread regarding WNG rep > spring adjustment: > > > > I made a meaningful discovery related to the rep springs on the WNG parts > today. It’s the same problem that I had on some Abel Encore whips a couple > of years ago, which I corrected on that action with a very obvious > improvement. > > > > Nick and others have observed that the rep springs are very difficult to > adjust with consistency – see Nick’s remarks below. I was having this same > issue on this Steinway a couple of years ago. I had regulated about 75 % of > the rep springs. They were behaving very inconsistently with regards to > strengthening or weakening them. And the action had this vague, it just > doesn’t feel right, I don’t know what it is thing going on. Finally, I > pulled a whippen off the rail and started looking at it and playing with > it. I noticed that the spring moved back and forth a fair amount – the > bushing through the coil was smaller than the interior of the coil by almost > .050 inch. > > > > So I repined with a larger center pin, hung the whip on the rail, and > played the key. A tad better. > > > > I drilled out the hole, and inserted center pin bushing cloth that filled > the center of the coil completely. Much better, but the cloth without the > support of the pin would flex. > > > > I inserted as large a center pin as would fit into the bushing. > > > > Voila – I was back in Fat City. The vagueness was gone, there was no herky > jerky rise to the hammer. The hammer rose in a smooth and steady fashion, > and the action felt positive, direct, and predictable. The improvement was > not subtle > > > > So I removed all whips from the rail and proceeded to rebush and repin them > in this fashion. And now this piano action felt like the real thing. Time > well spent. > > > > > > I checked the WNG whips for this today. Sure enough, there was side to > side play, as well as fore and aft movement. The smallest of the 3 size > springs had the most play, but all had obvious movement. I started by > repining what was there, moving from the .048 original center pin, to .054, > and finally to .061. Much improved but still some play. > > > > So I drilled out the bushing with a .120 drill bit, ran the center pin > bushing cloth through, followed by .061 center pin. Now the coil was as > snug as a bug in a rug. Now my test notes adjusted for strength in the > usual manner with that firm, positive feel we want. > > > > Why would this be important? Think about it – that rep spring is lifting a > lever arm and acting as one itself. If it is moving, it is changing the > mechanical advantage in an unpredictable and inconsistent manner. How hard > or soft, how fast or slow, it’s always going to be changing on you, but not > predictably > > > > I feel strongly that this is very likely the source of your problems. > Experiment yourself, easy enough to do. You will be surprised. And if a > barbarian like me can feel it, think what it would mean to a real player! > > > > I spoke with Jerry Reyerson at WNG about this, and they will investigate > it. Hard or soft bushings, the problem will still be the same. > > > > Will Truitt > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] *On > Behalf Of *Nicholas Gravagne > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:30 PM > *To:* pianotech at ptg.org > > *Subject:* Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question > > > > Hi Will, > > Thanks for you input > > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 4:13 PM, William Truitt <surfdog at metrocast.net> > wrote: > > Hi Nick: > > I’m mostly through my first regulation on the WNG shanks, whippens, > capstans, front and balance rail pins, and back checks; along with Weikert > felt Ronsen hammers. The shanks and whips are the cloth bushed ones, which > were sitting on my shelf for a while. > > My observations thus far: > > Yes, the rep springs are insanely, outrageously strong – even with this set > of Weikert felt hammers, which are on the heavy side. > > > Same here, including the Weikert felt hammers, which weigh in only a tad > lighter than the originals. > > I’m regulating them now but have done about half of them. I’m still > deciding what I’ll do to get them down consistently. What did you end up > doing Nick, besides pulling them up to strengthen them or pushing them down > to weaken them? > > > Virtually impossible to get the kind of consistency we like to see. I don't > see any special technique that will mitigate this problem. But RE standard > techniques, I had to push down on the spring with the Hart tool a good deal > farther than usual. Tweaking for a tiny bit more of slackness was had by > placing the Hart tool under the top spring and "massaging" upward, taking > care not to kink. > > Frustration creeps in when the adjustment is now too loose requiring the > reverse adjustment for more tension. So now you slip the top spring out of > the groove, give it a tiny yank, and once again you are too strong. From the > standpoint of the technician, I would take the screw-adjustment any day than > to have to regulate springs this way. > > On a typical wood system, the range or zone of workability is noticeably > larger. The WNG zone of workability is quite narrow. You say you have cloth > bushed parts? Why not try to repin the rep lever to something like twice its > current torque (as measured with the spring disengaged). I think we would > all like to know what you come up with. > > I did have some problems with some of the drop screws being loose in the > shank flange hole, and the jack window height adjustment screw the same. > Also, some of the center pins were not centered well in their bushing > cloth. > > > Had no issues with any of these. My parts are the current run of hard > bushings. > > Also the ends of the shanks varied in diameter at the tips, which > required me to take sandpaper and round them down a bit. Some hammer heads > were quite tight on the shanks. This created problems gluing on the heads. > > > > Why not ream the head holes rather than dress down the shank ends? This > worked well for me. > > > > The shanks are not very stiff torsionally, yet are stiff longitudinally. > > > Yes, but the same is true for wooden shanks (I think). I can't imagine that > relative lack of torsional stiffness should be a problem. > > I ended up doing about the “average” amount of traveling on the shanks. > > Less traveling required here. > > “Burning”of shanks is pretty simple and easy as pie once you start to get > used to it. > > Yes. > > I did end up with about half a dozen loose heads, which I CA’ed back on. > I did remove one to relocate it, no problema. No clicking issues. > > > No loose heads (that I am aware of), but clicking probably due to hammer > centers. > > Friction was very consistent in the 2 to 4 gram range, just as you > observed. Whips consistent. > > Yes. > > I removed them from the rail and cut off the excess shank on the band > saw, then cleaned them up on the belt sander. > > > Me too; but we need a better way to do this so as not to remove the shanks > from the rail. With wood I have been able to saw off the stubs and disk sand > flat (via pad and electric drill) with all attached to the rail. Had trouble > sawing through the tubes with any ease. > > Blew them out with an air gun. I don’t like the tubed shanks - I think > it gives the hammers a hollow sound. > > Very interesting! > > > Did you put in WNG backchecks too, Nick? I would be interested in your > reaction to them if you did. > > No. Installed the big and long fat guys from Pianotek (or was it > Pacific). I like these and checking is working out like a dream. Considering > the WNG lightweight parts and low-inertia design (including the capstans) I > did not foresee any weight issues, and in fact had to remove a good deal of > lead from the original keys. A friend tech of mine, with mucho mucho > prepping experience reports many frustrations regulating the WNG backchecks > in a new M&H AA. Anyone else? > > Did you use the back check kit that WNG sells? I did, but I had to > modify 3 of the 5 jigs just to be able to use them on this Steinway A. > > Useful to know. > > Thanks Will > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] *On > Behalf Of *Nicholas Gravagne > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:30 AM > *To:* pianotech at ptg.org > *Subject:* [pianotech] WNG Parts Question > > > > For those of you familiar with the new Wessell, Nickel and Gross (WNG) > composite action parts: > > Having recently installed WNG whippens along with shanks and flanges (w/ > the new hard bushings) I have a couple of questions. > > 1) What is your general, overall sense of these parts in terms of > regulation and performance? For one thing, we are finding the rep springs > way too strong, requiring more than usual "uncoiling" to obtain correct > spring strength. The shank flange friction is within WNG specs of 2 to 4 > grams as measured per the WNG site. > > 2) Have you encountered clicking sounds, reminiscent of the old S&S Teflon > bushings? We have on about 8 treble notes. The clicking also might have been > loose hammer heads, but these were checked and also reinforced (front and > back joints) with CA glue, followed by making sure of flange and action > screw tightness. > > Still clicking. Since the flange bushings are hard (as opposed to the > earlier WNG parts which came with cloth bushings) we cannot easily check / > repin these centers. Any WNG-specific insight on the source of clicking? > > Some quick thoughts: > > The action is an old Boston M&H BB that was heavily leaded. The lighter > weight and lower inertia WNG parts, including the low-mass capstans, allowed > for a significant amount of lead removal and / or reduction. > > The shanks "burn" easily and surely with a heat gun. > > The WNG "action glue" recommended for hammers, etc., works fine as long as > you don't readjust previously glued hammers (as is often done with hot > glue). If you see one leaning that was glued a few minutes earlier, better > to let it dry and then burn it over later. > > Very few flanges required travel paper. > > Overall flange friction, whips and shanks, is fairly consistent. > > Trimming and / or sanding off the hammer shank (tube) stubs after the > hammer glue has dried creates a black powder, some of which migrates into > the hollow tube only to escape later on to your nice, clean backchecks. > Break up the fibrous material in the tubes with a wire and vacuum out, or > else allow the shanks to hang vertical and shake-'n-tap the powder out. > > Am probably forgetting something. Will post more when I know (or remember) > more. > > I know that Bruce Clark is storehouse of knowledge here, but I am also > interested in varied input and experience from working techs. > > Thanks > > -- > Nick Gravagne, RPT > AST Mechanical Engineering > > > > > -- > Nick Gravagne, RPT > AST Mechanical Engineering > -- Nick Gravagne, RPT AST Mechanical Engineering -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20100624/54d555f5/attachment-0001.htm>
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