Well said, Wim. And it points to the self serving in both parties – it is all centered on their survival politically. How bad can it be if I got elected?
Will
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of tnrwim at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 5:50 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was:billing dilemmawith pitch raises
It is a sad reflection on these times we live in where, instead of debating the pros and cons of all sides of an issue in a dispassionate manner so that we can collectively and peacefully arrive at solutions that benefit as many of our citizens as possible, there are people who get out the flame throwers and denigrate and demonize those whom they disagree with. I. E., if my opponent is pond scum, I don’t have to give credence to anything he or she says. That may work in societies where relationships are based solely on power struggles, but is terribly dysfunctional in a democracy.
Will Truitt
In a "real" democracy, that is the way it supposed to work. But unfortunately, that is not what is happening in Washington anymore. First of all, just look at all the negative ads politicians are throwing at us. There is no more civility in government. All of them are packing heat, and throwing flames at each other.
A couple of weeks a ago NPR interviewed two former congressmen. Each said that when they were in office, they would have lunch on a regular basis with members of the other party. They got to know their "opponents" as people. They would go on hunting trips and to a ball game. They even went on fact finding missions.
But now politicians in not only DC, but even state and city governments, never talk to each other, except at committee meetings, and them only to deal with the issues. There is no common ground any more. It's all, "what's in it for ME and my party".
Before we can have an effective government again, politicians need to change their attitudes. When that happens, perhaps we will have a health policy that works, and won't bankrupt the nation. Can we live that long???
Wim
-----Original Message-----
From: William Truitt <surfdog at metrocast.net>
To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was:billing dilemmawith pitch raises
Dean:
I don’t smoke, drink 2 liters of coke a day, or eat fast food. I eat a lot of raw fruits and vegetables. I don’t buy organic beef or the meat of trash eating animals because I don’t eat meat. I take my Vita-Meata-Vegamins. I do expect others to pay for my health care because, in universal health care, I am paying for theirs too. And, by the way, this is how private health insurance works also. Everybody pays into a pool so that the individuals who need to take from the system can get the care they need when they need it, at least in theory.
I sympathize with your remarks about junk foods and their impact on our health and associated health care costs. You are not wrong about that. Health care professionals are predicting that 1/3 of our citizens will develop diabetes because of poor lifestyle choices. Perhaps we should get the money changers out of the cafeteria, and remove the coke machines and candy dispensers from the public schools.
Governments simply could not function without the power to compel their citizens to do certain things. Taxation has to be compulsory, otherwise the system could not function. Roads would not get built or fixed, schools could not educate our children. The question lies in where we draw the line as to what things governments should do and compel their citizens to pay for. For those who have forgotten, we still live in a democracy. So the majority gets to choose where the lines get drawn, and can change the lines if they don’t like it. Which means, Dean, that you can change where the lines are drawn if you can find enough like minded individuals. That’s your right as a citizen, same as mine. And the majority wins. Is that tyranny?
How did you decide that my motive is to steal bread from the mouths of your children to pay for my health care? I didn’t even know that you have children. Honest.
It is a sad reflection on these times we live in where, instead of debating the pros and cons of all sides of an issue in a dispassionate manner so that we can collectively and peacefully arrive at solutions that benefit as many of our citizens as possible, there are people who get out the flame throwers and denigrate and demonize those whom they disagree with. I. E., if my opponent is pond scum, I don’t have to give credence to anything he or she says. That may work in societies where relationships are based solely on power struggles, but is terribly dysfunctional in a democracy.
Will Truitt
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [ <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Dean May
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 9:13 PM
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was:billing dilemmawith pitch raises
"What, pray tell, is the more sinister motive that the rest of us (in our drooling tranquilized stupor) seem to be missing?"
And why should I pay for the health care of someone who smokes, eats fast food and drinks two liters of Coke a day? Health is directly related to a person's lifestyle choices. I try to eat raw foods, I buy grass fed organic beef and raw organic milk. I don't eat the meat of trash eating animals. I take vitamins. I don't expect someone else to pay for my health care or my family's.
The sinister motive is you want the sheriff to steal bread from the mouths of my children to pay for your health care and for the idiots who abuse their bodies with what they do and eat. The very real threat of lethal force backs up every piece of legislation. So in essence, "free" health care advocates are willing to kill me to get their free lunch.
Medical care costs have skyrocketed during my lifetime. It has paralleled the increase of "free" care provided by insurance and Medicare. The more free you make it, the more expensive it becomes. Lower costs come from responsible consumers making informed choices. For example, my wife needed a gall bladder sonogram. I priced shopped, something someone with insurance would never do. One hospital (private) was going to charge around $400. The other hospitial- public and bigger- was going to charge around $750. Neither charge included the radiologists fee to read the results. I found an independent imaging lab that charged $225 and that included having their on site doctor read the results. How many people with insurance or Medicare would have gone to this kind of effort??? The answer is self evident.
The reason health care is so expensive is because it is so free for so many people. There is zero incentive (there is actually negative incentive) to bargin for lower prices. And the more free you make it the more expensive it will become.
Dean
Dean W May (812) 235-5272
PianoRebuilders.com (888) DEAN-MAY
Terre Haute IN 47802
_____
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [ <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of William Truitt
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 7:42 PM
To: <mailto:pmc033 at earthlink.net> pmc033 at earthlink.net; <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was:billing dilemmawith pitch raises
The inconvenient truth is that health care costs are already bankrupting the economy. The lack of paying customers is slowly bankrupting many hospitals, as the number of indigent patients increase. One of the reasons our auto industry and so many other industries are uncompetitive are health care costs. You may argue that these costs should be shifted to the employee, which, more and more they are. And so many cannot afford to carry the full burden of health care, so they end up at the hospitals, placing a great burden on the bottom line for the hospital and putting it at risk, as the patient and their families topple into financial ruin. The health care system is broken NOW. You may disagree with Obama’s solution to the health care crisis, but he is not wrong to say that we cannot go on as we have been.
By the way, we are the only major industrialized democracy that does not provide universal health care for its citizens. We have the most expensive health care in the world, yet the care people receive gets worse by the day. We’re not even in the top ten for quality of care. Is the health care provided by these countries expensive? Yes it is, and people’s taxes are correspondingly higher. But, when people get sick they can go to the doctor, and then get the care they need, great or small. Wow, that’s really cool!! I’m even old enough to remember when it used to be like that here in the good old USA.
If I have a choice between not receiving health care at all (hospitals, operations, doctors visits) because I cannot afford it and am literally priced out of the system completely, or paying more taxes and receiving quality health care whenever I need it, I pick the latter. It’s a no brainer. It can be done, it’s already being done successfully in many other countries less wealthy than this one. And notice I said paying more taxes. I’m not getting anything for free that way, I’m paying for it. Just like I’m already paying for my social security and Medicare, ahem….
To say that “the new O’care will collapse the economy.” is stating a belief or an assertion. That is not the same thing as a statement of fact. In order for that to become a statement of fact, it has to be substantiated by statistics and other facts. Otherwise it is nothing more than fear mongering, as it has been so readily bandied about.
What, pray tell, is the more sinister motive that the rest of us (in our drooling tranquilized stupor) seem to be missing?
Will Truitt
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [ <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Paul McCloud
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:39 AM
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was: billing dilemmawith pitch raises
Hi, All:
This story about this woman is indeed horrible. The inconvenient truth is, the new O'care will collapse the economy. We simply don't have the money, never mind the "Big Pharma", HMO's, PPO's, etc. who are crushing the doctors and skewing their judgment. In case you hadn't noticed, the United States Government is broke, and we won't be able to pay the interest on the debt.already. So, you can dream about this wonderful system being successful here, but in the end it will bury us. The whole idea was to insure those Americans who are uninsured, who have little income to pay for expensive medical care. Sounds cozy, right? Gee, and they will vote for us because we're doing them such a favor. The real truth is, the whole exercise is designed for something more sinister, and we're being sold down the river. But, "'tis folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss". What I'm trying to say is that we need to look at the big picture, and not be fooled by the "free goodies" being passed out by the government to tranquilize the population. Jer might be paying 50% in expenses, but wait 'till the biggest expense is our TAXES.
Paul McCloud
San Diego, Kali-Fornia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:surfdog at metrocast.net> William Truitt
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: 11/01/2010 3:14:15 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was: billing dilemmawith pitch raises
To David and all:
I have a friend who is a head nurse at our local hospital. She has been telling me recently how few paying patients and how many indigent patients they have – sum total many empty beds. A symptom of our expensive health care combined with this deep recession.
Last week she told me of a woman who had been admitted with advanced breast cancer – so far advanced that the diseased breast tissue emitted a very foul smell, making their treatment of her medical needs very unpleasant to accomplish. (Which they are all continuing to do)
I don’t mention this to gross anyone out on this forum. This woman had no health insurance, and she and her family had ignored her problem until she was too sick to be at home and finally came to a hospital to die. I know nothing of her circumstances, but it seems likely that they felt they had no options for her care as she became sicker.
I cannot think of a worse way to be sick than this. No doubt she endured great pain at home as her illness advanced, and without medication. In essence, she received no medical treatment until it was time to die. At this stage of her disease, the only thing she will gain as her disease continues to advance is pain medication to ease her suffering until she dies, which she is at least receiving now.
Of course, she is in intensive care. Now, one of two things will happen: One, her family will be saddled with staggering hospital bills that will put them into financial ruin. The terrible irony will be that, except for the end of life care she is now receiving, she will have had no medical benefit from adding on all this expense her family so feared and wanted to avoid, and yet they will still lose everything. Or two, the hospital will be saddled with these bills that make their financial existence less viable with every passing day.
I feel compassion for this woman and her family, yet she is far from alone in her horrible circumstances – not with 50 million uninsured Americans and that number still growing.
I don’t feel that the issues of medical care are off topic for this forum. They affect every one of us. As a statistical economic group, we’re not at the top of the food chain. These days, many of us do not have health insurance because we simply cannot afford it, period. Along with so many other Americans. Or we are dramatically underinsured, which is also another path to financial ruin.
I do have very strong opinions about the politics of all this, but I am withholding them. I look at the plight of this poor woman and her family and say to myself, “There but for fortune go I.”
Will Truitt
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [ <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of <mailto:tnrwim at aol.com> tnrwim at aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 4:43 AM
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was: billing dilemma with pitch raises
We’re on a pretty different page about this and I’m not into the conspiracy theory aspect but it’s not probably meant for this forum. We all operate with the intention of staying out of the hospital. Sadly it doesn’t always work out that way and I have a couple of family members who are a testament to that and the associated costs that they would be saddled with had they not had insurance. And yes, they are now well thanks to doctors and “Big Pharma”. All I can say is good health and good luck but I’m keeping my health insurance.
David Love
David
I think you might be missing the point of Susan's rant. Although Susan didn't have it, we all do need insurance. My wife broke her ankle a year ago, and even though she had some limited insurance, we wound up paying almost $20,000 out of pocket, out of a nearly $40,000 bill.
What Susan is right about, however, is that medicine, which used to be basically no-profit, is now become a corporate giant, which only cares about profits, and not the heath of our population. Doctors are forced, by the HMO's they belong to, to order test after test, most of which are unnecessary, not because there might be something wrong with you, but because the HMO is covering their backsides, to protect them against lawsuits. They order the tests because there is money to be made by them, which makes the HMO's bottom line look better. The tests, in turn, are charged to the insurance company which then raises rates to cover the expense. And round and round it goes. Now the government want to get involved, which means our taxes are going up. All because of the greed of the HMO's, Big Pharma, and Insurance companies.
Yes, there are some very good thing happening in medicine, but don't get me started about some of the meds that are absolutely useless, and/or dangerous. Just listen to all the "side effects" of some of the med commercials. These aren't "side effects". In most cases, these meds are causing more harm than good.
This might not be directly related to piano work, but in a sense, it is related to how much we make tuning pianos. When insurance rates go up, we have to charge more to tune pianos. But when we charge more, customers are reluctant to get their pianos tuned, which reduces our income.
This is why it is imperative for us to stay healthy, and vote for the candidates who will work to reduce our health costs.
end of rant.
Wim
-----Original Message-----
From: David Love < <mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net> davidlovepianos at comcast.net>
To: pianotech < <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Sun, Oct 31, 2010 5:59 pm
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was: billing dilemma with pitch raises
We’re on a pretty different page about this and I’m not into the conspiracy theory aspect but it’s not probably meant for this forum. We all operate with the intention of staying out of the hospital. Sadly it doesn’t always work out that way and I have a couple of family members who are a testament to that and the associated costs that they would be saddled with had they not had insurance. And yes, they are now well thanks to doctors and “Big Pharma”. All I can say is good health and good luck but I’m keeping my health insurance.
David Love
<http://www.davidlovepianos.com/> www.davidlovepianos.com
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [ <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Susan Kline
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 8:42 PM
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Medical costs (OT!) was: billing dilemma with pitch raises
On 10/31/2010 7:22 PM, David Love wrote:
Health insurance is expensive but getting out of a hospital stay with only a $30,000 bill is cheap. It could easily be in the $100,000s plus. You insure against catastrophe.
Warning: RANT in progress:
David, this is true, as far as it goes. However, the very act of insuring changes the medical system, and not just the fee structure either. The kind of medicine practiced changes, especially once legal defensibility, peer pressure among doctors, and the pressure of Big Pharma get scaled in. What costs the most is what you end up with. So, not enough "primary care physicians" and more and more specialists. Research only gets funded if it leads to more expensive and more chronic pharmaceutical use. Very useful low cost treatments and protocols have no defenders, because no one will get rich from them. Whoever stands up for them will get bashed about by those who make a lot of money from the lucrative alternatives. In the end (and we're nearly there) society ends up with a system so expensive and dysfunctional that most of the time people would be better off if it didn't even exist.
Statins, for instance, a big money maker based on the total myth that cholesterol causes heart disease, which has been disproven for decades. (If one had to pick a single cause of heart disease, it would be FRUCTOSE.) Statins are medically dangerous, ineffective for their announced purpose, and expensive. Lipitor is the #1 prescribed drug in America (if I remember what I read correctly) and it is medically useless and harmful for all but the tiny fraction of the public who have hereditary super-high cholesterol.
On the neurology site I found, the one with a very effective "nerve support formula" for myelin problems (which were what I had), a whole section of the testimonial page was filled by people who got neuropathy only from taking statins. They go to neurologists, who only give them painkillers like gabapentin, with a zillion side effects, which do nothing to heal nerves, but the d ocs leave them on the statins causing their nerve damage. Meanwhile, the website is selling a formula containing benfotiamine (a form of Vitamin B-1 known for lessening the pain of neuropathy), and methyl B12 (a highly absorbable form of Vitamin B-12, also very helpful for myelin.) It really does work. The pain in my hands lessened noticeably within a couple days of starting it. It works by speeding healing, not by covering up pain. So why don't the doctors give it to their patients? The only reason I can imagine is that Big Pharma would be very annoyed. You'd be interfering with their billions in profits. Some of the patients would get away, instead of taking ineffective painkillers (the analgesia wears off with repeated use) the rest of their miserable lives.
Well, this is a piano list .... but I was very lucky that I had the money to pay off that bill, and my local hospital is a _good_ hospital, a teaching hospital which is well-run, and non-profit. What goin g to a bad hospital would be like makes me shudder.
In the end, with both insurance and government welfare blunting the feedback on costs, and so many people getting wealthy off the medical system and its associated industries, and government subsidizing high fructose corn syrup which gives millions of people diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and obesity, there is no insuring against catastrophe. There is not money enough on earth to keep this whole ramshackle calamity we call "medical care" from breaking down.
I turn 65 next year. I'll do my level best never to give Medicare anything to pay for. I think that doing one's best to avoid needing medical treatment is a social duty, and also a form of self-preservation. It's not like most of the common treatments WORK. My particular treatment (immunoglobulins to stop the advance of Guillain Barre Syndrome) did work, and was needed and appropriate. So I was glad it was there.
Susan
_____
From: Susan Kline <mailto:skline at peak.org> <skline at peak.org>
Sender: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:00:37 -0700
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> <pianotech at ptg.org>
ReplyTo: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] billing dilemma with pitch raises
Hi, Jer
A friend told me it was as if my life had pressed a great big RESET button. You know how some weeks you get so tired, and say to yourself, "if only I could take six months off!" (Beware what you ask for ...) I now feel lucky it was only five months, and it did do a good number on the chronic fatigue, just staying home. Double vision for five weeks was quite galling.
$1,000 a year doesn't even get you in the door when it comes to medical insurance. I investigated it in 1981, when I had come back to the US from Canada. I was appalled. They wanted more for a month of insurance than I expected to pay for normal medical care in several years. I was broke. I just "said no." I'm sure it's only gotten worse since.
I don't think I made a conscious decision about "full service" tuning (at least in a minor version.) It just seemed the natural thing to do. I ha ted seeing something wrong and just LEAVING it.
Susan
On 10/31/2010 6:30 PM, Gerald Groot wrote:
I’m sorry to hear about your crisis. That really sucks.
Spending what we do spend on health insurance, you are quite correct when you say you could buy a whole lot of health insurance for that but, on the other hand If we were to spend say about $10,000 a year or so with deductibles or more, in 10 years, that’s an easy $100,000. In that regard, you’re ahead of the game there.
Thanks for the conversation. I enjoyed it. I do find the idea of full service quite interesting and have an open mind to it, believe it or not. J
Jer
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [ <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Susan Kline
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:14 PM
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] billing dilemma with pitch raises
On 10/31/2010 5:15 PM, Gerald Groot wrote:
We have phone’s, insurance, business insurance, health insurance, life insurance, some even carry ear insurance or hand insurance.
We would have phones anyway.
Not all of us have all that insurance. I, for instance, carry home owners insurance and car insurance, and that's it.
I admit people with a family would worry without life insurance, and maybe some kind of disability or health insurance. I think that unless they are very anxious types, most single people are better off without most of those other insurances: the tool insurance, (HAND insurance??), liability insurance (which just makes your pockets deep enough for someone to want to sue you).
I went 30 years without health insurance, ever since coming home from Canada. And last spring I became the poster child for what can happen as an uninsured person gets older. Here I am, aged 64, and I had a medical crisis and a hospital stay last May, and found myself with a hospital bill for $30,500 (after negotiations.) Plus other do ctor bills. Okay ... my gosh, how could she do without the insurance?? Well, first, if you prorate my hospital bill for thirty years, you end up with about $1,000 per year -- you couldn't buy a whole lot of health insurance for that. Second, these days if you have been a good and faithful customer for years, paying premiums the whole time, and you suddenly have a major medical cost, the companies have whole rooms full of people whose only job is to go through your history with a fine tooth comb, to find an excuse not to pay. Now, there is overhead for you -- pay the insurance (at what I think are exorbitant rates) and THEN pay the medical costs yourself anyway, plus maybe some legal costs trying to collect.
To sum up again -- I think a very important skill for a person in business is to keep overhead to the bare minimum. I don't remember Jer mentioning advertising, but that's another one which I think most really good piano techs should do without. Word of mout h does it all so much better, and is scot free.
Susan Kline
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