[pianotech] Steinway parts list

[William Monroe]

Come on, Wim.

As others have stated, the issue is really that the decision of whether or
not to distribute this price list is not yours.  Get past the legality issue
and approach it from a perspective of respect.  If you are in truth
concerned about business ethics, you  need to get beyond "your own opinion"
and ask S&S what their wishes/intentions are - and then adhere to those
wishes.  I think it's worth while to display a modicum of respect to a
supplier that you and many of us depend upon.

William R. Monroe




On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 6:35 AM, <tnrwim at aol.com> wrote:

> As a follow up, the fact that both Del and I copied and pasted direct
> quotes from books written about copyright law, is not a violation
> of copyright laws, because all we are doing is sharing this information with
> others. We are not selling the information, nor are we claiming these
> statements to be ours.
>
> The same thing with the price list. All we are doing is sharing the
> information we got from Steinway with others on this list. We are not
> claiming it to be ours, nor are we selling the list.
>
> There are two other issues at stake. One is the confidentiality aspect. In
> my opinion, If Steinway wanted the price list to be confidential, they
> wouldn't have distributed it on the Internet, even if they thought it was
> only to their customers. If it was to be distributed as a confidential price
> list to only their customers, they would have, or should have, given
> explicit instructions to their customers that the price list is strictly
> confidential and can not be shared with the general public.
>
> The other issue a stake, as David mentioned, is the business aspect. And
> even that, in my opinion, is not all that critical. As I mentioned
> before, in all my years of piano work, I have yet to run across a customer
> who questioned the price of the parts I used.
>
> Wim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tnrwim <tnrwim at aol.com>
> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 27, 2011 5:21 pm
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list
>
>  Here is a quote from a company that sells books and gives advice on
> copyright materials.
>
> "Copyrightable material must be original and contain a minimal level of
> creativity. Generally, works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of
> expression are not eligible for copyright protection.
> Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, titles, names, slogans,
> procedures, methods, concepts, principles, and discoveries, although it may
> protect the way these things are expressed. This is because copyright
> protects the form of expression and not the underlying idea or subject
> matter."
>
> I don't know, did it take a certain amount of creativity to produce the
> price list, and is it considered "intellectual property?"
>
> Wim
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Delwin D Fandrich <del at fandrichpiano.com>
> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 27, 2011 4:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list
>
>  Well, there are lists and then there are lists. The following is taken
> from the U.S. Copyright Office, *Copyright Basics*. Works that cannot be
> copyrighted include:
>
> *• Works consisting entirely of information that is common*
> *property and containing no original authorship (for*
> *example: standard calendars, height and weight charts,*
> *tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from*
> *public documents or other common sources)*
>
> The information contained in Steinway’s parts list proprietary to Steinway,
> it was authored by Steinway, formatted by Steinway and published by
> Steinway. I would guess it is considered by Steinway to be confidential. In
> any case the information in it is not “common property” and it is not going
> to be found in “public documents or other common sources.”
>
> As may be, it was my impression that it was actually Steinway’s
> publication; it was not a reformatted or recompiled list of that
> information. I’d be real surprised if it was not covered by copyright law.
>
> As I said earlier, I have no idea what Steinway’s position might be in all
> of this. They may actually encourage its free distribution for all I know.
> My only point was, and is, that making their price list public is not a
> decision a few piano technicians have the right to make on their own.
>
> ddf
>
>
>
>  Delwin D Fandrich
> Piano Design & Fabrication
> 6939 Foothill Court SW, Olympia, Washington 98512 USA
> Phone  360.515.0119 — Cell  360.388.6525
> del at fandrichpiano.com — ddfandrich at gmail.com
>
>  *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org<pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?>]
> *On Behalf Of *David Boyce
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:12 AM
> *To:* pianotech at ptg.org
> *Subject:* Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list
>
> Indeed. Copyright is not something that you have to DO. It is something
> that automatically IS.  It is a right that exists as soon as you produce an
> original work.
>
> What would be copyright about a price list, however, is the TYPOGRAPHICAL
> ARRANGEMENT of the prices into a list. The information or fact that a
> particular part costs a particular price, is not copyright. There is no
> copyright in facts or ideas; only in original WORKS produced using skill and
> judgement.
>
> It is the same with the piano numbers books like Pierce, as we discussed on
> here a couple of years ago.  It would break copyright law to scan and
> reproduce a page of Pierce. But it would not breach copyright to use the
> piano numbers listed in it, in some other context (however much the
> publishers might care to suggest otherwise!).
>
> The information that a given flange costs a given price, does not
> constitute a WORK.  The typographical arrangement of prices for all parts
> into a list, does constitute a WORK. Therefore, copying and reproducing the
> list, or work, is a breach of copyright. Distributing the information IN the
> list, in some other form, is not.
>
> More pertinent here, though, is the aspect of business confidentiality and
> business relationships.
>
> End of pedantic rant.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Boyce.
>
>
>
>  It does not have to show specific copyright information. It is
> copyrighted material by virtue of its having been written. (See pg. 3 of the
> attached “Copyright Basics.”) Like it or not, Steinway’s price list is
> copyrighted and the copyright is owned by its creator or by the entity
> paying for its creation; in this case Steinway & Sons. To reproduce it or to
> distribute it without their permission is a violation of copyright law.
>
> Now, Steinway may or may not care if you distribute their document without
> checking with them first—I have no idea what their position might be—but
> that is their decision to make; not ours.
>
> ddf
>
>
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