<<They will last indefinitely if all they have to do is move back and forth during playing. Where you will have problems with these levers is when you start trying to adjust them, by bending the wires. When you try to bend the wires to adjust the dampers to make them damp better, that is when the lever will break at the screw. That is the design fault of the lever. Newer levers will be able to withstand the pressure. But if they are the dark, original levers, be prepared to put new ones on. No amount of gluing or repairing will do the job.>> This is precisely why, or at least in large part why, the client and I ultimately decided it would not be worth doing, for a variety of reasons that we feel are perfectly valid. And if I don't replace the old dampers, there will be no reason to have to make all kinds of adjustments to the levers/wires to make them dampen properly. They were all aligned prior to removing the action; so unless I somehow inadvertetly, or accidentally cause(d) any misalignment to the dampers, it should go right back in the same way. Bullets dodged! Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson "Over 50, and not '2' Tired!" www.unigeezer.com To: pianotech at ptg.org From: tnrwim at aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:47:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright And even if the levers are only half as old as the piano, wood will last longer than felt, especially damper felt. The wooden body of a stradavarious can survive hundreds of years, but the strings and other parts won't. With the extremely light and infrequent playing this elderly couple does with this piano, there is no indication that the damper levers will start falling apart all of a sudden, Terry Yes, wood lasts longer than felt, but in this case, as several techs have mentioned, there is a design flaw in the way the Steinway damper levers were made. Now, it could very will be that these levers were replaced at some point in the past. One way to tell is the color of the wood, as one tech mentioned. If they are dark brown, then these are original, and could be prone to breakage. If they are lighter wood, you probably won't have any problems. Which leads me to last statement you made. Just playing the instrument is not where the problem lies with these levers. They will last indefinitely if all they have to do is move back and forth during playing. Where you will have problems with these levers is when you start trying to adjust them, by bending the wires. When you try to bend the wires to adjust the dampers to make them damp better, that is when the lever will break at the screw. That is the design fault of the lever. Newer levers will be able to withstand the pressure. But if they are the dark, original levers, be prepared to put new ones on. No amount of gluing or repairing will do the job. Wim -----Original Message----- From: pianolover 88 <pianolover88 at hotmail.com> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Wed, Feb 8, 2012 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright <<As long as you don’t mind running back there multiple times to fix the next one that goes, and the customer doesn’t mind paying you repeatedly, then you can keep gluing little pieces of veneer to the edges of the damper levers, fitting oversized pins in the damper flanges and otherwise doing half-fast repairs>> This particular action's damper levers ALL are solidly intact, and none are showing ANY signs of failing, breaking or splitting. Although the hammers are 104 years old, it had been restrung and some parts were replaced, which may very well have included the levers, *and* the dampers. And even if the levers are only half as old as the piano, wood will last longer than felt, especially damper felt. The wooden body of a stradavarious can survive hundreds of years, but the strings and other parts won't. With the extremely light and infrequent playing this elderly couple does with this piano, there is no indication that the damper levers will start falling apart all of a sudden, after decades with absolutely zero breakages. But a new set of hammers will greatly improve tone and touch since the old hammers are so badly flattened, deeply grooved, been filed at least twice, and whoever filed them did a god awful job as they are so terribly misshapen and the outer layers are almost non existent! In fact, there are at least 5 or 6 hammers that had been filed FLAT at the crown, to remove the grooves!!! Cheers, Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson "Over 50, and not '2' Tired!" www.unigeezer.com From: donhubbs at mwt.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 14:42:40 -0600 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright As long as you don’t mind running back there multiple times to fix the next one that goes, and the customer doesn’t mind paying you repeatedly, then you can keep gluing little pieces of veneer to the edges of the damper levers, fitting oversized pins in the damper flanges and otherwise doing half-fast repairs. These old Steinway actions will suck you in and chew you up. If you aren’t going to do it right the first time, prepare the customer for ongoing service calls. These are superior old pianos, but most of them have been played to death and yes, they often do need more action parts than can be economically justified. Is there any source for less expensive parts? Dealers can buy complete sets of hammers mounted on shanks and flanges for new asian pianos for less than $200. Has anyone modified these old actions to accept standard parts? The old V with the wooden damper lifters is the worst to work on.. I have 4 of these in my shop right now that I am trying to decide what to do with. Don Hubbs From: pianolover 88 [mailto:pianolover88 at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:55 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright You're so right! And it made me think, my god!!!, what about ALL the other delicate, aging parts, like the pinblock, strings, soundboard, bridges, whips, jacks, butts, springs, trapwork...EVERYTHING MUST BE REPLACED!!!! I couldn't live with it if I didn't do a TOTAL rebuild, on the chance that SOMETHING might fail, fall apart, stop working perfectly, ect. Thank you Wim for showing me the light! How could I have been so blind!? And besides, the owners are elderly, retired, play the piano rarely, and live on a limited fixed income. But it's for their own good! My new motto: It's ALL or NOTHING! Cheers! Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson "Over 50, and not '2' Tired!" www.unigeezer.com To: pianotech at ptg.org From: tnrwim at aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:46:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright The general consensus I've gathered from various sources seems clear; "if you can make do with what's already there, i.e., the original dampers, DON'T try to replace them!!! You may make matters far worse, and dig yourself into an ever-deepening hole!" Cheers, Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson Terry The general consensus I got from all the posts was that it is easier, and a lot cheaper in the long run, to replace the levers now, than wait until the customer complains that the dampers aren't working, and when you try to adjust them, they start breaking. But, hey, you asked for advice. Who are we to tell you you have to do what we recommend. Good luck Wim -----Original Message----- From: pianolover 88 <pianolover88 at hotmail.com> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Tue, Feb 7, 2012 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright The general consensus I've gathered from various sources seems clear; "if you can make do with what's already there, i.e., the original dampers, DON'T try to replace them!!! You may make matters far worse, and dig yourself into an ever-deepening hole!" Cheers, Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson "Over 50, and not '2' Tired!" www.unigeezer.com > From: joegarrett at earthlink.net > To: encorepianos at metrocast.net; pianotech at ptg.org > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 23:21:35 -0800 > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > Will, > Are you playing Devil's Advocate?<G> > See my answers below > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Encore Pianos <encorepianos at metrocast.net> > > To: <joegarrett at earthlink.net> > > Date: 2/6/2012 8:05:09 PM > > Subject: RE: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > Well, Steinway altered the design on the K-52's to a larger damper. Who > > decides what it was intended to be? Steinway changed the design, so they > > must have decided that the earlier one wasn't what they intended it to be. > > If you really knew the real story, you wouldn't be making that statement or > question. Truth is: They discontinued manufaccturing the K-52. And, as the > story goes, tossed out all of the original plans/jigs/fixtures,etc. Then, > years later, they decided that was a bad decision and decided to start > making that model again. They started with an olde one, that was not in > very good shape and tried to replicate it. However, they decided to use > Pratt-Win keys and actions instead of the original stuff. BIG FUBAR!!! > (this was during the time of TEFLON) I suspect there are still a few of > those turkeys out there.<G> Then, they decided to use Renner parts. It has > morphed into what it is today. Is it as good as the original design? I > don't think so! It's close, but it just ain't the same. The originals > had/have a beautiful singing quality throughout the scale. The new ones > seem to be somewhat lacking imo. > > > > The history of piano design was evolutionary up to the last hundred years > or > > so. Who decides when it has been perfected? > > That, sir, is a totally ridiculous question that I will not justify with my > answer!!! > > > > What is "too much damping"? Be specific on the amount, and how that is > > measured. > > Will, Go to bed and think about it, before asking, yet another stupid > question! > Respectfully, > Joe > > > > Will Truitt > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph Garrett [mailto:joegarrett at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:07 PM > > To: Encore Pianos; pianotech at ptg.org > > Subject: RE: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > Will, > > I disagree. But, suit yourself. > > My thought is this: Too much damping is just as bad as not enough. > > Most techs dislike over-damper pianos, because they do not dampen like the > > pianos they work on. Big mistake. The intended overall sound of the > > instrument is altered significantly when we attempt to make it something > it > > was not intended to be. That's my take on this. It's served me well. > > Best, > > Joe > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: Encore Pianos <encorepianos at metrocast.net> > > > To: <joegarrett at earthlink.net>; <pianotech at ptg.org> > > > Date: 2/6/2012 6:36:19 PM > > > Subject: RE: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > > > The Tokiwa kit or equivalent is superior in damping to the original > > design. > > > The original dampers are too small to damp as effectively as the > > > longer > > bass > > > and tenor dampers of the kit. The new Steinway upright dampers are > > > longer than the old for that reason and damp better. > > > > > > Will Truitt > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > > Behalf > > > Of Joseph Garrett > > > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:57 PM > > > To: pianotech > > > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > > > Terri the Uni-Geezer asked: > > > "I"m replacing worn hammers and *dampers* on a client's old Steinway > > > upright, circa 1908. Having never replaced dampers on this particular > > model, > > > I was unaware that--apparently--replacing dampers on this piano is a > > > NIGHTMARE, and one of the most difficult damper jobs of ANY piano, > > > either upright or grand. Is this true? This gloomy scenario was > > > communicated to > > me > > > by a tech who works at a local piano supply house, but I'd rather not > > > mention who. > > > > > > I was told that the felts, especially the treble, are 'tapered' and > > > that > > you > > > must "peel little layers off as you work your way up", or they won't > > > lift properly, and won't dampen correctly. Basically I was told that > > > ALL the dampers are almost impossible to get right with modern day > > > replacements, without significant modification. Pics attached are from > > > the action > > showing > > > the dampers. I would appreciate ANY advice the forum member may have, > > > and what you might suggest, short of declining the job! > > > > > > PS: Brooks LTD told me that the Tokiwa TDVK damper kit (pic also > > > attached) would work well. Your thoughts on this would also be > > appreciated." > > > > > > Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson, > > > > > > Replicating is far less difficult than climbing that big-ass hill!<G> > > > So, suck it up and reproduce exactly what is there. If you do not have > > > the necessary damper felt, (in strips and sets), the Guillotine > > > cutter, Hot > > Glue > > > Pot and other assorted tools necessary to that job, get them or farm > > > it > > out > > > to someone who can do the job correctly. The Tokiwa set may work. > > > Then again, maybe not. I've done several of these actions.. They ARE > > > the most difficult to work on, IMHO, so meticulous work is required. > > > OR, you will have the biggest nightmare of your piano loving career. > > > (I've had to clean up the mess of others that did not take this > > > advice...not a fun gig fer sur.) However, this is a worthy effort, > > > since the Steinway Uprights of that design/era were, IMO, some of the > > > best, ever. Yes, they are cranky critters, but the end result can be > > extremely gratifying/satisfying. > > > So........Go For It Big Uni-Geezer Dude!<G> Best, Joe P.S. > > > If you need specific help, feel free to call me. > > > > > > > > > Joe Garrett, R.P.T. > > > Captain of the Tool Police > > > Squares R I > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/20120208/e761bb91/attachment-0001.htm>
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