[pianotech] Old can of worms (was Re: tunelab vs verituner)

[David Renaud]

I did not at all suggest I had an engineering degree, I have a music degree.

I was addressing the comment previously made by someone else suggesting that having to take today's tuning Test was like asking to take an engineering exam with only a slide rule and pencil.

My hope was to point out that the apology is not good because:

1)Indeed, you actually can use technology for large parts of the tuning exam.

2)  The aural part is primary to demonstrate that a candidate actually does know some aural test.
In this interest, The margins of error are very larg, and this part is not to produce a concert level tuning at all, but a minimal standard. Most of the people I have seen fail this part knew practically no aural checks tests whatsoever. Forget executing tests well ,the problem was so many do not have the information at all. It is a test of demonstrating a minimal knowledge of aural tests.

3) the exam process does have a written part before qualifying to take the tuning exam. As you suggest should be, is indeed, Questions Regarding partial, harmonics, and stretch are part of the written exam. 

    So my point was only that the analogy with the slide rule is not valid. And my discussion was intended to point out that a fair comparison would be an exam where the candidate would be 
Expected at some point in the exam to demonstrate some minimal manual mental calculations and knowledge without referring to the computer/devise.   In my opinion the aural component of the tuning tests does this minimal demonstration of aural testing knowledge for it has generous margins of error, and anyone with basic knowledge and practice of a 3 or 4 Interval tests can achieve passing at the 80% level. The problem I have seen so often in the exam room with the aural part is mostly lack of knowledge of any aural tests. It is indeed a demonstration of a minimal standard, not concert tuning. 

    I have mentored enough experienced tuners through assimilating basic aural skills to have an opinion. ALL of them say it opened up a whole new world to them. All of them appreciated and valued the added techniques. You do know that none of the examiners get remuneration for the 
Hundreds of hours they have spent training for and being in the exam room? To give that much 
Free time you have to have a spirit that really desires to give back. These people want others to succeed, and have put their time and money behind their words giving thousands of dollars worth of time because they do care. One CTE I respect very much asked me once."if we will not preserve Something of the aural tradition, who will? "  
        There is value there. There are people that care and give there.  The aural part 
Deserves respect.   

                                             Cheers
                                               Dave Renaud


Sent from my iPad

On 2012-05-10, at 8:15 AM, Bill Fritz <pianofritz50 at aol.com> wrote:

> David, I do believe there are points to be made on both sides of this discussion.  And there are some points that Duaine mentions that are worth detailing.
>  
> First, in what discipline did you earn an Engineering Degree?  My reason for asking, that subject matter and/or school was probably out of date, if you had to demonstrate how to use a slide rule.
>  
> In the Science (BS Physics) and Engineering (MSEE) schools I attended, we did hardly any mental number calculations.  But what we did have to understand were the concepts & underlying principles.  Then we had to set up any problems w/ the appropriate usage of formulas.  At that point, the professors would give us almost full credit... certainly enough for an A.  If we miscalculated using our slide rule, we might lose 1 point in 15 or so.  Dropping us to an A-.  Certainly a grade to be proud of in Engineering schools. 
>  
> With the advent of even just the mainframe computer, the focus was on the ability to understand & solve the problems.
>  
> Though I'm not sure if Duaine was schooled in Science or Engineering, I believe he is at least partially taking a similar stance with respect to the temperament tuning part of the test.
>  
> I would expect that part of any Tuning test would also include a written portion on the theories of why that temperament & octaves are tuned the way they are, to achieve a tight ET temperament.  Fifths are narrowed, etc...  Which note are we referring to in a 4:2 octave of A3/A4?  What are the checks used, and WHY? etc...
>  
> And of course, what others have suggested, there would be more Unisons & Stabilities testing emphasis (Aurally only)...  for to most customers, that's what they seek & can understand.  What do we hear at the PTG Conventions over & over & over?   In descending order of importance:  Stability, Unisons, Octaves, and finally temperament.
>  
> Before the advent of today's ETD's, Tuners had to rely on the Temperament section to extend the octaves & make the total piano sound in tune with itself.  And the more accurate the temperament was, the better those top & bottom octaves sounded.  That is not true today w/ ETD's.  Any offset the ETD tuner inadvertently makes on the middle note pitches does not get translated into a target for those top & bottom octaves, unlike the Aural tuner.
>  
> PS  In our Engineering school, we did not have to demonstrate how the slide rule worked... we only had to understand it's basic principles of adding logarithms.  And our Professors quickly jettisoned the slide rule for the handheld calculators when they arrived.
>  
> So yes, the RPT tests need to move into the 21st century (much less the last quarter of the 20th!).  With the advent of the ETD, many Piano Techs without the "RPT" title, with some experience & the ETD, can out tune the "Craftsman" of old.  And yet the PTG keeps pushing this old focus.
>  
> Best Regards...   Bill Fritz, St Louis
>  
>  
> From:	David Renaud <drjazzca at gmail.com>
> To:	pianotech at ptg.org <pianotech at ptg.org>
> Subject:	Re: [pianotech] Old can of worms (was Re: tunelab vs verituner)
> Date:	Wed, 9 May 2012 21:46:13 -0400
> 
> > Duaine, I think only the first section of the test, setting the temperament, 
> is required to be done aurally.  After that, you can use an etd.
> > Gary
> > 
> 
> You can use a computer program for much of the tuning test. So in the analogy, 
> The engineer would have technology at his disposal, but at some point in the 
> test might be asked
> To do some mental calculations also. Fair. As an expert in his field, and a 
> teacher, perhaps for a moment asked to demonstrate he does know how a slide rule 
> actually works.
> 
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