[pianotech] Old can of worms (was Re: tunelab vs verituner)

[Encore Pianos]

Well, Duane,  I can do 3 pitch raises and a fine tuning aurally in just about 2 hours, on the occasional piano that needs that much.  About an hour 40 minutes for 2  pr & ft.  If the piano is over 50 cents flat, I will usually schedule a second visit, because it will wander.  

I won't argue that a ETD can calculate a pitch raise and do a more accurate pitch raise than by our aural means, I have done that with the machine.  No argument there (no need to either).   It's very good, but it is not the Holy Grail.  Nothing is.  

BUT, I say BS to your "MIGHT make some MINOR tweaking", after your MINOR (hmmmm.....) checking.  

Yes, there are some pianos out there where the pitch drops in like it is going back into a slot, I've tuned some of those both ways.  But there are also plenty of pianos where the pitch will wander up or down in ways that are not predictable, and will do so no matter which method is used.  I can hear it happen aurally, and quantify it by the machine if I want to.  I make several passes before fine tuning, and I also know some good ETD tuners who will make 3 passes on some of these beasts because their ear and the machine tells them that is what it takes to get it right.  Sometimes the piano is 10 cents flat and misbehaves as described, sometimes it is 60 cents flat and acting this way.  

My guess is that you are doing one pass on just about everything, and doing little or no checking.  If you don't check it again with the machine, and you don't know what a piano in good tune sounds like, ignorance is bliss.  But, as Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but Verify."  And, ahem, that's why there is an aural part to the tuning test, to help you keep honest with yourself.   I challenge you to do a single pass on your next few pianos, then write down the cents deviation for each note in relation to the calculated tuning, and keep those records.   You might actually learn something about your tuning that you didn't know.  

Will Truitt



-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Duaine Hechler
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:03 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old can of worms (was Re: tunelab vs verituner)

Not to deliberately belabor this point, but answer me this;

99.9% of my tunings involve MAJOR pitch raises. With aural tuning ONLY, how in the "sam hill" can you do a MAJOR pitch raise in less than 2 hours.

Now let's see - that involves setting the temperament, PRESUMABLY, at the same time, calculating stretch, tuning each note, tuning the unisons, etc Oh, yeah, do your "precious" aural tuning checks, but, wait, the piano is constantly moving because it was so out-of-tune, but some how you are still supposed to do them, how I will never know. Starting from the middle, tune up and tune down AND with the piano still moving along the way. So now you some sort of BASE tuning, so now you have to go back and "tweak" BUT, again, the piano is still moving, so you have to, maybe, tweak again and again and again, etc. Have I forgotten anything ?

Now, with an ETD (like, Cybertuner (because that is what I have)), you capture the "starting" point of the piano with all the A's; IT calculates the proper pitch of the note where it is supposed to be - factoring in, automajically, the stretch and you tune from note 1 to note 88. Now, do some MINOR checking, which you MIGHT need to make some MINOR tweaking. And, now you are DONE.

Stepping back out of your CURRENT life and as a NEW tech coming into the business, you would pick the ETD route. So did I, like millions of other techs.

So there - "put that in you pipe and smoke it"

Duaine

On 05/10/2012 07:57 AM, David Renaud wrote:
> I did not at all suggest I had an engineering degree, I have a music degree.
>
> I was addressing the comment previously made by someone else 
> suggesting that having to take today's tuning Test was like asking to take an engineering exam with only a slide rule and pencil.
>
> My hope was to point out that the apology is not good because:
>
> 1)Indeed, you actually can use technology for large parts of the tuning exam.
>
> 2)  The aural part is primary to demonstrate that a candidate actually does know some aural test.
> In this interest, The margins of error are very larg, and this part is 
> not to produce a concert level tuning at all, but a minimal standard. 
> Most of the people I have seen fail this part knew practically no 
> aural checks tests whatsoever. Forget executing tests well ,the problem was so many do not have the information at all. It is a test of demonstrating a minimal knowledge of aural tests.
>
> 3) the exam process does have a written part before qualifying to take 
> the tuning exam. As you suggest should be, is indeed, Questions Regarding partial, harmonics, and stretch are part of the written exam.
>
>     So my point was only that the analogy with the slide rule is not 
> valid. And my discussion was intended to point out that a fair 
> comparison would be an exam where the candidate would be Expected at some point in the exam to demonstrate some minimal manual mental calculations and knowledge without
> referring to the computer/devise.   In my opinion the aural component of the tuning tests does this minimal 
> demonstration of aural testing knowledge for it has generous margins 
> of error, and anyone with basic knowledge and practice of a 3 or 4 
> Interval tests can achieve passing at the 80% level. The problem I 
> have seen so often in the exam room with the aural part is mostly lack of knowledge of any aural tests. It is indeed a demonstration of a minimal standard, not concert tuning.
>
>     I have mentored enough experienced tuners through assimilating 
> basic aural skills to have an opinion. ALL of them say it opened up a 
> whole new world to them. All of them appreciated and valued the added 
> techniques. You do know that none of the examiners get remuneration 
> for the Hundreds of hours they have spent training for and being in 
> the exam room? To give that much Free time you have to have a spirit 
> that really desires to give back. These people want others to succeed, and have put their time and money behind their words giving thousands of dollars worth of time because they do care. One CTE I respect very much asked me once."if we will not preserve Something of the aural tradition, who will? "
>         There is value there. There are people that care and give 
> there.  The aural part Deserves respect.
>
>                                              Cheers
>                                                Dave Renaud
>
>


--
Duaine Hechler
Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ
Tuning, Servicing&  Rebuilding
Reed Organ Society Member
Florissant, MO 63034
(314) 838-5587
dahechler at att.net
www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com
--
Home&  Business user of Linux - 11 years