[pianotech] FW: Re: Guess what I have in my shop?!

[Paul McCloud]

Hi, Joe:
I'll stick my head in here, if 'ya'll don't mind.  
Joe, I second every thing you said about dampers in that thing.  I "stepped in it" some years ago when I rode in on my white horse to replace some dampers on one of these.  Luckily, it was in the store, and not in somebody's living room.  Another fine mess I got myself into.  
Then, there's the "chinese puzzle" of getting the keys out, because the "stack" doesn't come off.  There are only certain keysticks (naturals)
 that have a groove in the underside, so you can lift them just far enough so the key can clear the balance pin.  The pin slides down the groove as you pull the key out.  Once you discover which ones have the groove, the other keys next to them can be lifted and tilted to one side so you can get them out.  
There is so much hand work in these things it's mind boggling.  Every square millimeter has been worked, shaped, and sanded.  No rough edges, no splinters, everything done to perfection.  
Best of luck on this thing.

Paul McCloud
San Diego

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Garrett" <joegarrett at earthlink.net>
To: "pianotech" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 7:25:44 PM
Subject: [pianotech] FW: Re:  Guess what I have in my shop?!






Joe Garrett, R.P.T. 
Captain of the Tool Police 
Squares R I 




----- Original Message ----- 
From: Joseph Garrett 
To: Terry Farrell 
Sent: 5/17/2012 7:24:22 PM 
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Guess what I have in my shop?! 



Below.<G> 





----- Original Message ----- 
From: Terry Farrell 
To: joegarrett at earthlink.net 
Sent: 5/17/2012 6:21:37 PM 
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Guess what I have in my shop?! 













Terry the Farrell said: 
"HOT DOG! 1867 Steinway square. Likely will not be pulling plate. Doing 
some bridge repairs, restringing, dampers, full action rebuild. Case is 
nearly flawless. Should be nice when done....." 

Joe Garrett wrote: 
I would strongly suggest you pull the plate and do pinblock route/replace! 



Well, I hadn't decided what I'm gonna do there. The pins are original with maybe 30 in-lbs. torgue (not tight, but good enough to tune it). I could just go one size up, or I was thinking of maybe plugging through the plate. Never done that before, but I was toying with trying it. I've plugged square blocks before when I've pulled the plate out - I like doing that - but I am not planning on yanking the plate on this one. 

Hmmm? I wouldn't trust what ya can't see. Please, at least pull the plate to get a look-see. Do Not plug through the plate! That's a no-no with those thin webbed plates. If the block looks o.k. after you pull it..put the plate back in and get with the stringing. Would suggest going up two sizes. There's plenty of bulk in those pinblocks, but they're mabe 3 laminations at best and old! Please use blued pins only. 

Any comments on this? 
Okay, fair enough - BUT! So I pull the plate - and I can see the top lamination - so what does that tell me? My recollection from drilling out some of these old blocks is that there are likely going to be two or three thin-ish maple laminations on top of a huge hunk of solid hard maple. What do you expect me to be able to see if I pull the plate? 

Cracks, Contamination...maybe nothing.<G> If the former, than ya needs to do something about it, so's it will still be tuneable 3 months after you finish it.<G> (hopefully longer) 









Cap the bridges..don't just "mess with it"! 



Well, being that this is sort-of an economy job, and I wasn't intending on pulling the plate, I was thinking more along the lines of a good epoxy repair. 


An "economy job" on a Steinway. Unhuh! Save that for the cheap stuff please?? As for the epoxy thang, yeah, you could do it, but it is a Steinway, which is capable of a whole lot more than most squares. I've always told Steinway owners: If you can't afford to have me fix it right, then go buy something else, because you can't afford to own this piano. That's my reality. 

The cheap stuff? You mean like a Mathushek or an Emmerson? I've never noticed any difference among them - all seem to be very good quality. What do you think is superior with a Steinway square? 

Better workmanship. Better Scale. More consistency. It's usually self evident. K? 







If the dampers are reasonably functional..leave them alone. If not, then 
duplicate EXACTLY what is there. DO NOT put modern Wedge type dampers on 
it! (PLEASE???!!!) 


Sounds reasonable. Curious though - why not use wedges? 

Check out the actual Geometry! There's a 3 dimensional thing going on there that makes them interact with each other! 
Well, okay, you have my attention. Please explain though - what geometry? Three dimensional thing? 

The lever is moving in an arc in two dimensions, usually, and paralell in the third. makes for some interesting juxtapositioning. Just work the lever and see how closely the heads/pads are in the movements. There is no wiggle room at all. Slightly misalign just one damper lever and see what happens.<G> Oh, and the rail itself pivots so there is that little secondary arc as well. Just take my word for it, don't get nuts with the modern damper felt. If you decide to try that, it's your frustration, not mine. <G> Besides, even IF you could, very carefully install modern damper felt and IF it all worked like a modern system, then you would not be hearing it as it is meant to sound! I ALWAYS tell my clients this: "this piano does not sound like, nor play like a modern piano. It can't, because it was not designed or built to be a modern piano. IF you want it to sound like a modern piano.....then go buy a Modern Piano!" 
< /STRONG> 






I've corrected that mess, I can't tell how many! Besides, here's the straight poop: At the time that piano was manufactured, (right along side of modern uprights and Grands), they had figured out what/how to get dampers to work efficiently. They were duplicating the SOUND of what we call Ancient Instruments. Hence, the "over-ring" is INTENTIONAL! That is what makes these sound unique. Don't screw that up or let the client(s) convince you that they need to have it dampen like a modern piano! It WILL NOT WORK, take my word on that. 




Do a scale evaluation and reset it for 440cps. Use 
435cps as your criteria for the initial scale run...then change that 
perameter. 



Yup. Already planning on that. 




Hmmm? And where are you going to get the action parts for this "full action 
rebuild"???Hmmmm?<G> 


Well, okay, I guess I was exaggerating a bit - how 'bout "fairly thorough"? Hammer butts and jacks are in pretty good shape - I think it will regulate quite well with the originals. New hammers though. Somebody replaced the hammers - looks like normal grand hammers and some grade-schooler went at them with a dull knife to shape them....... :-( 

The major thing is the Jack Spring Cords. Make sure those are good, if not replace ALL of them, not just a few. After all, that flax cord is 145 years old. Do not expect it to hold up with, even, light playing! 
Cords? I'll admit I only took a cursory look at the action innerds, but I think the jacks have something resembling a modern jack spring with no cord - but maybe I just missed it - or maybe they are gone! Sure though - if they are part of the picture, all would get replaced of course. 

I just thought of something else: I would like to be a mouse in the corner when you try to figger out how to take the action apart...which you HAVE TO DO!<G><G> BTW, it is recommended that you drill the access holes through the let-off rail so's you don't have to use those damned off-set screwdrivers to adjust the lost motion..which you absolutely HAVE to have! Some other tips: the butt felt has to be in very good shape, (not squashed), else it'll play like a tank. The jacks HAVE to be aligned with the hammer butts..so, ya needs to travel the rocker capstans for that issue. Back checks are rather light weight but they do the job, IF the leather is in good condition and pliable, otherwise replace it. The key end felt MUST be in good condition w/o any holes, (from the damper wires), in them. If you replace them, make sure to use exact shape and dimension. tip: bevel the back edge of the damper lift felt, slightly, so that when sliding the action in/out, (which you will do a helluva lot of<G>), the damper wire will not bind on each one, causing you the need to double play every damped note each time you reinsert the action. 
You will need a wire "T" to lift hammers for alignment to strings. 
There is not a "modern" jack spring in there...unless it's a freak square or possibly a Mathuschek, which classifies as a bit freaky, albeit, correct design.<G> 
Are we having fun yet?<G> 





If you are going to replace the hammers get them from Ray/Ronsen. Since you don't have the originals, trust him to make them from his archives data. He's really on top of that. 
Definitely Ronsen - only way to go. Glad to hear he has archival data on these pianos. I was going to call him and talk to him about that. 





Also, REPLACE the hammer shanks..ALL of them, please. You'll not regret that either. Save yourself some grief. 
Yeah, there are a couple broken shanks - so all will get replaced for sure. 





The "existing hammers" Sounds like the same moron that was around here for a while! YIKES!<G> Oh, BTW, you will need to custom fit, (shape) each hammer, even tho they will come pre-trimmed from Ray. I suggest you do every other one kind of thing. It will save you much grief on that account too.<G> Hammer shanks can be obtained from Schaff....look under "pallet rods". They are 3/16" spinet shanks, just longer. The quality is pretty poor, so order, at least, 200. DAMHIK! If you get a full 90 out of that many, consider yourself lucky. (even though you only need 85<G>...yeah, I noticed.) I can give ya the specs/particulars on the butt boring jig, so not to panic there. 
Sounds like good info. Thanks. 


Terry Farrell 

Yer Welcum!<G> 
Joe