[pianotech] FW: Re: Guess what I have in my shop?!

[Joseph Garrett]

Paul,
If you would have looked UNDER the action frame, you would have seen the
answer to the problem.<G>


> [Original Message]
> From: Paul McCloud <pmc033 at earthlink.net>
> To: <joegarrett at earthlink.net>; <pianotech at ptg.org>
> Date: 5/17/2012 8:01:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] FW: Re:  Guess what I have in my shop?!
>
> Hi, Joe:
> I'll stick my head in here, if 'ya'll don't mind.  
> Joe, I second every thing you said about dampers in that thing.  I
"stepped in it" some years ago when I rode in on my white horse to replace
some dampers on one of these.  Luckily, it was in the store, and not in
somebody's living room.  Another fine mess I got myself into.  
> Then, there's the "chinese puzzle" of getting the keys out, because the
"stack" doesn't come off.  There are only certain keysticks (naturals)
>  that have a groove in the underside, so you can lift them just far
enough so the key can clear the balance pin.  The pin slides down the
groove as you pull the key out.  Once you discover which ones have the
groove, the other keys next to them can be lifted and tilted to one side so
you can get them out.  
> There is so much hand work in these things it's mind boggling.  Every
square millimeter has been worked, shaped, and sanded.  No rough edges, no
splinters, everything done to perfection.  
> Best of luck on this thing.
>
> Paul McCloud
> San Diego
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Garrett" <joegarrett at earthlink.net>
> To: "pianotech" <pianotech at ptg.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 7:25:44 PM
> Subject: [pianotech] FW: Re:  Guess what I have in my shop?!
>
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> Joe Garrett, R.P.T. 
> Captain of the Tool Police 
> Squares R I 
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>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Joseph Garrett 
> To: Terry Farrell 
> Sent: 5/17/2012 7:24:22 PM 
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Guess what I have in my shop?! 
>
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>
> Below.<G> 
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> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Terry Farrell 
> To: joegarrett at earthlink.net 
> Sent: 5/17/2012 6:21:37 PM 
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Guess what I have in my shop?! 
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> Terry the Farrell said: 
> "HOT DOG! 1867 Steinway square. Likely will not be pulling plate. Doing 
> some bridge repairs, restringing, dampers, full action rebuild. Case is 
> nearly flawless. Should be nice when done....." 
>
> Joe Garrett wrote: 
> I would strongly suggest you pull the plate and do pinblock
route/replace! 
>
>
>
> Well, I hadn't decided what I'm gonna do there. The pins are original
with maybe 30 in-lbs. torgue (not tight, but good enough to tune it). I
could just go one size up, or I was thinking of maybe plugging through the
plate. Never done that before, but I was toying with trying it. I've
plugged square blocks before when I've pulled the plate out - I like doing
that - but I am not planning on yanking the plate on this one. 
>
> Hmmm? I wouldn't trust what ya can't see. Please, at least pull the plate
to get a look-see. Do Not plug through the plate! That's a no-no with those
thin webbed plates. If the block looks o.k. after you pull it..put the
plate back in and get with the stringing. Would suggest going up two sizes.
There's plenty of bulk in those pinblocks, but they're mabe 3 laminations
at best and old! Please use blued pins only. 
>
> Any comments on this? 
> Okay, fair enough - BUT! So I pull the plate - and I can see the top
lamination - so what does that tell me? My recollection from drilling out
some of these old blocks is that there are likely going to be two or three
thin-ish maple laminations on top of a huge hunk of solid hard maple. What
do you expect me to be able to see if I pull the plate? 
>
> Cracks, Contamination...maybe nothing.<G> If the former, than ya needs to
do something about it, so's it will still be tuneable 3 months after you
finish it.<G> (hopefully longer) 
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> Cap the bridges..don't just "mess with it"! 
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> Well, being that this is sort-of an economy job, and I wasn't intending
on pulling the plate, I was thinking more along the lines of a good epoxy
repair. 
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> An "economy job" on a Steinway. Unhuh! Save that for the cheap stuff
please?? As for the epoxy thang, yeah, you could do it, but it is a
Steinway, which is capable of a whole lot more than most squares. I've
always told Steinway owners: If you can't afford to have me fix it right,
then go buy something else, because you can't afford to own this piano.
That's my reality. 
>
> The cheap stuff? You mean like a Mathushek or an Emmerson? I've never
noticed any difference among them - all seem to be very good quality. What
do you think is superior with a Steinway square? 
>
> Better workmanship. Better Scale. More consistency. It's usually self
evident. K? 
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> If the dampers are reasonably functional..leave them alone. If not, then 
> duplicate EXACTLY what is there. DO NOT put modern Wedge type dampers on 
> it! (PLEASE???!!!) 
>
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> Sounds reasonable. Curious though - why not use wedges? 
>
> Check out the actual Geometry! There's a 3 dimensional thing going on
there that makes them interact with each other! 
> Well, okay, you have my attention. Please explain though - what geometry?
Three dimensional thing? 
>
> The lever is moving in an arc in two dimensions, usually, and paralell in
the third. makes for some interesting juxtapositioning. Just work the lever
and see how closely the heads/pads are in the movements. There is no wiggle
room at all. Slightly misalign just one damper lever and see what
happens.<G> Oh, and the rail itself pivots so there is that little
secondary arc as well. Just take my word for it, don't get nuts with the
modern damper felt. If you decide to try that, it's your frustration, not
mine. <G> Besides, even IF you could, very carefully install modern damper
felt and IF it all worked like a modern system, then you would not be
hearing it as it is meant to sound! I ALWAYS tell my clients this: "this
piano does not sound like, nor play like a modern piano. It can't, because
it was not designed or built to be a modern piano. IF you want it to sound
like a modern piano.....then go buy a Modern Piano!" 
> < /STRONG> 
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> I've corrected that mess, I can't tell how many! Besides, here's the
straight poop: At the time that piano was manufactured, (right along side
of modern uprights and Grands), they had figured out what/how to get
dampers to work efficiently. They were duplicating the SOUND of what we
call Ancient Instruments. Hence, the "over-ring" is INTENTIONAL! That is
what makes these sound unique. Don't screw that up or let the client(s)
convince you that they need to have it dampen like a modern piano! It WILL
NOT WORK, take my word on that. 
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> Do a scale evaluation and reset it for 440cps. Use 
> 435cps as your criteria for the initial scale run...then change that 
> perameter. 
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> Yup. Already planning on that. 
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> Hmmm? And where are you going to get the action parts for this "full
action 
> rebuild"???Hmmmm?<G> 
>
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> Well, okay, I guess I was exaggerating a bit - how 'bout "fairly
thorough"? Hammer butts and jacks are in pretty good shape - I think it
will regulate quite well with the originals. New hammers though. Somebody
replaced the hammers - looks like normal grand hammers and some
grade-schooler went at them with a dull knife to shape them....... :-( 
>
> The major thing is the Jack Spring Cords. Make sure those are good, if
not replace ALL of them, not just a few. After all, that flax cord is 145
years old. Do not expect it to hold up with, even, light playing! 
> Cords? I'll admit I only took a cursory look at the action innerds, but I
think the jacks have something resembling a modern jack spring with no cord
- but maybe I just missed it - or maybe they are gone! Sure though - if
they are part of the picture, all would get replaced of course. 
>
> I just thought of something else: I would like to be a mouse in the
corner when you try to figger out how to take the action apart...which you
HAVE TO DO!<G><G> BTW, it is recommended that you drill the access holes
through the let-off rail so's you don't have to use those damned off-set
screwdrivers to adjust the lost motion..which you absolutely HAVE to have!
Some other tips: the butt felt has to be in very good shape, (not
squashed), else it'll play like a tank. The jacks HAVE to be aligned with
the hammer butts..so, ya needs to travel the rocker capstans for that
issue. Back checks are rather light weight but they do the job, IF the
leather is in good condition and pliable, otherwise replace it. The key end
felt MUST be in good condition w/o any holes, (from the damper wires), in
them. If you replace them, make sure to use exact shape and dimension. tip:
bevel the back edge of the damper lift felt, slightly, so that when sliding
the action in/out, (which you will do a helluva lot of<G>), the damper wire
will not bind on each one, causing you the need to double play every damped
note each time you reinsert the action. 
> You will need a wire "T" to lift hammers for alignment to strings. 
> There is not a "modern" jack spring in there...unless it's a freak square
or possibly a Mathuschek, which classifies as a bit freaky, albeit, correct
design.<G> 
> Are we having fun yet?<G> 
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> If you are going to replace the hammers get them from Ray/Ronsen. Since
you don't have the originals, trust him to make them from his archives
data. He's really on top of that. 
> Definitely Ronsen - only way to go. Glad to hear he has archival data on
these pianos. I was going to call him and talk to him about that. 
>
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> Also, REPLACE the hammer shanks..ALL of them, please. You'll not regret
that either. Save yourself some grief. 
> Yeah, there are a couple broken shanks - so all will get replaced for
sure. 
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> The "existing hammers" Sounds like the same moron that was around here
for a while! YIKES!<G> Oh, BTW, you will need to custom fit, (shape) each
hammer, even tho they will come pre-trimmed from Ray. I suggest you do
every other one kind of thing. It will save you much grief on that account
too.<G> Hammer shanks can be obtained from Schaff....look under "pallet
rods". They are 3/16" spinet shanks, just longer. The quality is pretty
poor, so order, at least, 200. DAMHIK! If you get a full 90 out of that
many, consider yourself lucky. (even though you only need 85<G>...yeah, I
noticed.) I can give ya the specs/particulars on the butt boring jig, so
not to panic there. 
> Sounds like good info. Thanks. 
>
>
> Terry Farrell 
>
> Yer Welcum!<G> 
> Joe