[pianotech] Cleaning product safety

[johnparham at piano88.com]

Greg,

Thanks again for expanding these ideas.

I did some additional reading about some of the terms you used in your
email, and it occurs to me that I could very easily create a dangerous
situation in my efforts to clean a piano, or my home. Correct me if the
following summary is incorrect.

Products containing quaternary ammonium such as list A should never be
mixed with products containing sodium hypochlorite (bleach) in list B.
Mixing the two products causes several chemical reactions, eventually
resulting in a poisonous gas called chloramine that is released as a
vapor. Choloramine is so toxic that it can render you unconscious.

List A---Pine-Sol, Fantastik All Purpose Cleaner

List B---Clorox Cleanup with Bleach, Fantastik Spray with Bleach, Soft
Scrub with Bleach

If I wipe down a cabinet or case with Pine-Sol, for example, I should
never chase it with a product with bleach in it, correct? I could see me
making that mistake in my house on any given weekend!

-John Parham




> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [pianotech] Cleaning Very Old Plate (now string cleaning)
> From: Douglas Gregg <classicpianodoc at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, May 24, 2012 10:21 am
> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
> 
> 
> John,
> I recently shared Method 2 with you in a personal e-mail for the first
> time. Now the whole world knows. And yes, the strings sound like new
> strings. It is better even than torching the strings by a little bit.
> Torching is easier as you don't have to remove them but you do have to
> wire wheel them and that takes some time. A caution on using a wire
> wheel on bass strings, the copper oxide dust is toxic to your lungs.
> You should wear a dust mask when doing that. It results in an asthma
> like condition that lasts for a day or two. DAMHIK. Likewise, don't
> breath the acid fumes from the boiling pot of vinegar and phosphoric
> acid. I think that would be obvious.
> 
> Speaking of toxic products, chlorine in the form of a hypochorite in
> bleach is not only extremely corrosive to metal, but toxic to your
> lungs in confined spaces. It is used to accelerate rusting of art
> pieces. Never use it around steel that you don't want to see rust
> right away. The chlorine molecule in quaternary ammonium disinfectants
> is strongly bound to the aluminum and benzyl rings and is not
> corrosive.
> 
> Instead of bleach, to remove odors from inside a piano, just put a tub
> of gel called Ultra Odor Gone inside the piano. It has no smell and is
> non-corrosive and permanently sucks odors out and they don't come
> back. It is used in museums after a fire and they don't even have to
> close down the museum.  I have used it with great success in a fire
> and smoke damaged S&S M player piano that I would not bring into my
> shop because of the awful smoke smell. I bagged the piano in a plastic
> tarp and put a tub of Ultra Odor Gone inside and the smell was gone in
> a few days and never came back. It is in a cottage cheese type
> container. You can pop it in the bottom of an upright and leave it. It
> eventually dries out into a hockey puck like block. It should work
> just as well for mouse odor too. Caution, it kills mouse urine odor
> but not  Hanta virus. So use caution when cleaning one out. A
> respirator is a necessity particularly is the mice have been there
> recently. All viruses die out with time and after a month or two, most
> will be non-infectious. But you rarely know how old the dirt is. A
> quaternary ammonium disinfectant is safer to use in the bottom of a
> piano that has recently had a mouse habitation. There are many
> available over the counter, including Scrubbing bubbles.
> 
> If you are worried about anything causing rust in a piano, like salt
> air near the ocean or sulfuric acid odor near pulp mills, etc., put a
> capsule of z-rust in the piano and it will prevent any future rust as
> long as the space is not open. Works great in uprights, good in grands
> that are kept closed most of the time. Not good in grands that will be
> left open all the time. No odor at all either. I buy them by the dozen
> and recommend them to any customer near the salt water. The slightly
> larger one lasts for 2 years. They are half the size of a deck of
> cards.  Amazon is now carrying them. Put one in your fishing tackle
> box too or your piano string storage drawer/cabinet.
> 
> Doug Gregg
> Classic Piano Doc
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 05:35:05 -0700
> From: <johnparham at piano88.com>
> To: pianotech at ptg.org
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Cleaning Very Old Plate (now string cleaning)
> Message-ID:
>        <20120524053505.f1fd8b108a58a93f763c4cd7f53850a9.f5c262ea34.wbe at email03.secureserver.net>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Doug,
> 
> You've shared method #2 with us before, but I have not tried it yet. You
> say they look like new strings, but how do they sound? Like new strings
> as well?
> 
> -John Parham
> 
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: [pianotech] Cleaning Very Old Plate (now string cleaning)
> > From: Douglas Gregg <classicpianodoc at gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, May 23, 2012 10:08 pm
> > To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
> >
> >
> > Thumpe,
> >
> > All I can say is you are a brave man. I use Brake cleaner as a solvent
> > for cleaning brake parts and sometimes carburetors and metal parts
> > that are really greasy. It is an incredibly strong mixture of
> > solvents. It is probably the strongest solvent mixture that you can
> > buy. It will take off paint, lacquer, and most other finishes except
> > polyester. I don't doubt that a slight drip would remove some finish.
> > The fumes are horrendous too. I only use it outside in the driveway
> > with a breeze blowing.
> >
> > However, your thinking is good. Removing grease, tar, and nicotine
> > from strings makes them sing again.
> >
> > Another Method for string cleaning:
> >
> > Try this method that I discovered following a small experiment with CA
> > glue. In my home piano (a very old Horace Waters with an ornate case)
> > I had a buzzing bass string that would not respond to any of the usual
> > treatments. So I figured I would have to replace the string but first
> > I would experiment a little. After all the patient is terminal- right.
> > I put a drop of CA glue on the end of the string where I thought the
> > wrappings might not be tight. Well, it totally killed the string. Then
> > I thought, what would dissolve the CA glue. Well, not much. I tried a
> > variety of strong solvents. No dice. Then I figured, what is dry CA
> > glue but polymerized acrylic plastic. Plastic will burn. So I took out
> > my handy propane torch and sure enough it lit up like a candle. Then
> > the string sounded better than when I started- no buzz and brighter.
> > So I torched a little more or the string and it got brighter, and then
> > the whole string. It eventually sounded like a new string. Then the
> > rest of the strings were very tubby in comparison. So I torched all of
> > them carefully . They all sound good now. I did not replace any of
> > them.
> >
> > What I think happens is that all the contamination burns and smokes
> > off. Now I have done this in at least a dozen pianos, both uprights
> > and grands. First I use a wire wheel in a drill to clean the strings
> > and shine them up. The reason for this is to be able to gauge the
> > color of the heated copper windings when torching them. Wire brushing
> > does help the brightness of the sound a little but not much.  I torch
> > the largest strings first. Move the torch up and down the string to
> > heat it evenly. Watch the color of the string. It will first change
> > from bright to an old gold color. This is the time to stop heating.
> > You don't want to heat it to a blue color. That can kill the string.
> > Don't ask me how I know. The color change is slightly delayed too, so
> > stop as soon as the old gold color appears. The small strings are easy
> > to overheat. I protect the soundboard with a piece of aluminum
> > flashing behind the strings- the biggest piece that will fit. Mine is
> > about 1 x 2 feet. I don't bother taking the tension off the strings.
> > They will go flat and will need to be tuned again but they will be
> > much brighter.
> >
> > Method 2
> >
> > I have been working on this for about 6 years off and on. For this,
> > you have to take all the strings out and straighten the coils. Bundle
> > them like a new set. Put the coil in an enamel or stainless straight
> > sided pot/bucket about 14 inches in diameter. Otherwise, you can't
> > force the bundle down to the bottom. I then add a 1:1 mixture of
> > Limeaway(phosphoric acid) and vinegar and two table spoons of
> > trisodium phosphate detergent or Calgon dishwasher powder in a pinch.
> > Completely cover the strings with liquid. I then take it OUTSIDE and
> > put the enamel pot in an electric fry pan and add some water to the
> > fry pan to make a double boiler. I heat it to boiling for 1 hour. The
> > strings will look like new. I then let it cool to room temperature and
> > pour off the acid and save it for next time. Rinse 3 or 4 times in
> > water in the enamel pot, then add several tablespoons of baking soda
> > to the last rinse. Let sit for 10 minutes while preheating an oven to
> > 250 F. AFTER the oven is preheated, turn it off, and  put the strings
> > in the oven to heat and dry. If you don't preheat the oven, the
> > heating is intense around the edges and will overheat some strings.
> > Yes,I know. Now it is ready to eat-or rather to restring. The acid is
> > neutralized by the water rinses and the baking soda and will not start
> > rusting again. They will look like new strings- even the blackest ones
> > you ever saw.
> >
> > Now you know my darkest secret formula.
> >
> > Doug Gregg
> > Classic Piano Doc
> > Southold, NY
> >