They can be very useful for this type of thing when you want to compare different degrees of stretch and feel confident that what you are listening to is really an accurate comparison. I tuned aurally for many years before getting an ETD. I bought it originally because I had gotten a large institutional contract and wanted something that allowed me to tune faster and with less stress (don't want to start this discussion again but I found that it made the burden of tuning many pianos in a day a lot easier). Being able to play with different tuning styles was a side benefit but it is a definite plus. As many have mentioned, it's just a tool. You can always turn it off. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Lawson Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:02 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stretch in tuning David, you have hit the nail right on ther head. This is where I am coming from too. Your explination is very claer and I thank you for it. Perhaps I should get myself an ETD, which I have avoided all these years, due to the in-grained tuition I had, decrying anything but aural. Then again is it worth it? I don't get any complaints, it's mainly me questioning myself, which I am sure we all do from time to time. Cheers, David Lawson ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 2:28 AM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stretch in tuning One thing I might add FWIW is that some years ago I heard of an informal comparison done between aural and ETD tuners that suggested that aural tuners tend to tune the overall piano with less stretch than ETD tuners. That would comport with my own experience when comparing my aural tunings to the ETD tunings that I do. Generally my aural tunings tend to be more harmonically "pure" and incorporate less overall stretch. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 9:21 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stretch in tuning There is another important aspect to stretch that is worth considering. While the piano itself may tell you something about the amount of stretch it wants within a one or two octave range, one function of stretch is to balance the disparity that can exist between the perception of harmonic versus melodic intervals. This is more of a psychoacoustic phenomenon but real none the less. We all are familiar with this phenomenon. Play two notes two (or three) octaves apart harmonically (together) and the perception of their "intuneness" will be somewhat different than if you play them melodically (separately). Played melodically the upper note will want to be sharper (or the lower note flatter depending on how you look at it) than when played harmonically. Thus, choosing some amount of stretch for the piano can depend, to some degree, on how you want the upper part of the piano, say, to sound when notes are played melodically as well as harmonically. Those more sensitive to melodic relationships will tend to want a greater amount of stretch at least in the upper (and lower) part of the piano. Having the tuning curve get a bit steeper in the extremes can prove a benefit in this case. One advantage of the ETD's is that the shape of stretch curve can be modified to accommodate this and the stretch will be graduated uniformly to blend in with the midrange parts of the piano so that there is smooth transition between sections. The RCT does this very easily by being able to essentially click and drag the settings in any one area. The Verituner allows you do this by preprogramming the amount of stretch in each octave via the weighting of a particular type of octave to be used as the reference and guide. The SAT has the DOB (Double octave beat setting) that allows you to increase or decrease the amount of stretch on the fly. I'm not familiar with Tunelab but I assume it can perform a similar function. Ultimately, then, stretch *is* a matter of opinion though there are certain practical limits. Customizing a tuning style with respect to stretch can be an important part of tuning whether that is done aurally or electronically. However, there are certain benefits to doing this electronically both in terms of control, predictability, repeatability, not to mention the ability to set a particular tuning curve shape and then be able to test it by sampling various octaves to see if it actually works to your liking. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ron Koval Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:09 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: [pianotech] Stretch in tuning "Just the question of the stretch that has always been a bone of contention amongst my peers. It has always been a 'matter of opinion', which is not quite perfect tuning IMO. Best regards, David" Ok, Let's take a little deeper look into this topic. The common misconception seems to be that by using one of the tests to set a particular octave match (2:1, 4:2, 6:3 etc) we can set the "perfect octave". We focus our attention and our ears to rule out any other information except one partial from the lower note and one partial from the upper note. I did a little experiment on two pianos, a Baldwin studio upright(243) and a Steinway D. I set 2:1, 4:2 and then 6:3 octaves between A4 and A3, then measured the fundamental of A3. The number represents in cents how far the octave was stretched. Then I set the octave justby ear as a unison would be tuned to determine the "sweet spot", or ideal placement. Baldwin 2:1 -.6 4:2 -2.9 6:3 -6.7 "ideal" -1.3 Steinway 2:1 -.2 4:2 -1.3 6:3 -3.1 "ideal" -2.0 You can see that the "ideal" octave is some sort of combination of the "pure" single-partial octave types. Lesser pianos may have a wider range between the octave types, as well as a difference between which partial matches is the location of the "ideal octave". Likewise, throughout the scale the partial choices change. I find that some pianos really like a 6:3 match for a section of the bass, or a 4:1 double octave match for certain portions of the treble... Most of my tunings end up using a mix of multiple partial matches to control the stretch. Ron Koval Chicagoland =
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