[CAUT] huge pitch raise question

[Michelle Stranges]

: o

Hey now... I dunno.. if I'm ever going to do that,  I'll have a *full  
suit of armor* on!!

; )


*The Kimball console with strings that broke in the midrange*.

That's exactly what happens to me.
You said "the breaking point will vary depending on where you are in  
the scale".
  Can you explain this more? (For I imagine they'd break more up at  
the top octaves rather than right in the middle....)
All this time I was thinking I introduced some "extra" type of  
tension- (that I could feel)  that wouldn't normally be on there if  
this had been close to pitch upon my arrival.

I would love to see some wacky scientific experiment with lighted  
gizmo's showing me what's happening (at the tuning pin especially)  
after I yank 50-75 cents of string tension around it.

On Jan 9, 2007, at 4:35 PM, ed440 at mindspring.com wrote:

> A good experiment is to intentionally break strings on a piano  
> that's going to be junked. WEAR EYE PROTECTION.  Tune a string as  
> unison with it's upper neighbor, and the next  upper neighbor, and  
> the next....
>
> The breaking point will vary depending on where you are in the  
> scale.  You will come away with a clear sense of what kind of  
> overpull it takes to break a normal string.
>
> I recently raised pitch on a 1990's Kimball console.  Three  
> midrange strings in a row broke just as they approached pitch. That  
> clearly was a problem with the wire.
>
> Another time  bass strings were popping from a container shipment  
> of Korean vertricals. A careful check showed the strings had been  
> seated with a sharp edged screwdriver, leaving nicks in the wire at  
> the top bridge.
>
> Work hardened strings (heavily played) will break when they are  
> ready, raising or lowering pitch, or with a pianissimo hammer  
> blow.  They break because they are so close to breaking that any  
> disturbance does the job.
>
> There is also some chance that a #4 tuning tip on a #2 pin could  
> work like a becket breaker and snap the becket.
>
> If you're using the right tool on the right tuning pin and not  
> massively overpulling, it really is the string's fault or the  
> piano's fault if a string breaks.
> Break a few on purpose and you'll give up lots of guilt.
>
> Ed Sutton
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mitch Staples <staples.13 at osu.edu>
>> Sent: Jan 9, 2007 2:07 PM
>> To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org>
>> Subject: Re: [CAUT] huge pitch raise question
>>
>> Michelle,
>>
>> Tuners don't break strings, strings break when they're under  
>> stress.  Often
>> tuning is when the strings are most stressed -that's my story and I'm
>> sticking to it.
>>
>> I don't break a lot of strings but if the piano has gone a long  
>> time without
>> tuning I tell the owner to expect a string or two to break.  Then  
>> when the
>> tuning's done and no strings have broken we all breath a sigh of  
>> relief and
>> hopefully they don't wait so long to have it tuned next time.  I  
>> would say
>> that each year about two or three strings break.
>>
>> In 20 years I've only had one string break on the second pass so I  
>> don't
>> know what to say about that (maybe I broke 'em all on the first  
>> try).  If
>> it's happening a lot maybe you're rocking back and forth over the  
>> object
>> pitch a bit too much.
>>
>> I usually don't move the pin to the left first, but if I feel some  
>> initial
>> friction I do.  I think that rocking the pin back and forth  
>> increases wear
>> on the pin block.  Also I think that my tunings are more stable if  
>> I move as
>> directly as possible from point A to point B.
>>
>> I try to bring the whole piano to pitch in one pass without more  
>> that 10
>> cents or so over pull.  If the piano is new I'll go as much as 30  
>> cents.  If
>> the piano is old, no over pull at all.  It's seems to me that  
>> older pianos
>> don't need so much.  95% of the time one pass will do it.  For  
>> improved
>> stability the quicker I can get through a pitch raise the better.   
>> You can
>> get through many pitch raises without using mutes accept in the  
>> temperament
>> 8ve.  It takes some practice but it saves about 10 minutes of what I
>> consider pure torture.  An ETD helps as it will usually ignore the  
>> incorrect
>> pitch in favor of the target pitch.  As long as the piano is  
>> generally at
>> pitch the fine tuning is as solid as ever.  I usually warn people  
>> that after
>> a big pitch raise the fine tuning won't be as stable as it will  
>> when the
>> piano is maintained properly.
>>
>> I've noticed the increase tork you mentioned.  I figure it's a  
>> combination
>> of increased tension and the pin being screwed deeper into the block.
>>
>>
>> Mitch Staples
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org]On Behalf Of
>> Michelle Stranges
>> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 2:07 PM
>> To: College and University Technicians
>> Subject: [CAUT] huge pitch raise question
>>
>>
>> Hi folks-
>>
>> Happy New Year!
>>
>> :D
>>
>> It happens more often than I'd like (and once is enough to be honest)
>> and while I "feel"  that it's not my lovely hammer technique ;)  ,
>> maybe it's something to do with some sort of "string thing"..
>>
>> Has anyone else run across this?
>> (Or maybe a PTG article I have overlooked?)
>>
>> Upon visiting a fairly new piano and finding it dreadfully flat (50
>> cents or more) , I carefully yet quickly, raise it up at least half
>> of what it was.
>> And I do have a (good?) habit of initially moving the pin in the flat
>> direction before moving it sharp in order to loosen any friction from
>> any rust or whatever that may have accumulated. Just a *quick* jerk
>> to the left- nothing serious at all.
>>
>> Now.. having raised the piano up (with a second pass to at least get
>> it up to pitch) I start doing a "fine tuning".
>>
>> it is either at this second pass or my fine tuning where strings
>> start to break.
>> In the usual places too- nothing out of the ordinary.
>>
>> (Am I doing "too many tunings" (up to 3  times) to raise this
>> completely up? Seems like that wouldn't be an issue,  especially if
>> it's new(er)?
>> Have I introduced some sort of unusual friction/heat or something??
>>
>>
>> Now this doesn't happen all of the time, but I am acutely aware that
>> it could and I wonder if there's something in my technique or my
>> sequence of pitch raising that makes these newer strings break. (I
>> could understand some strings breaking if the piano was older..)
>>
>> I know tuners who on the first go, bring the whole piano up tp pitch
>> but I've always been a little leary of that.
>> I'm wondering if they also have strings break on their second pass/
>> fine tuning..
>>
>> I fully realize that they (the strings) are now at different spots on
>> all of the contact and termination points so I would assume that
>> would add to the puzzle.
>> And I'd like to also add that it seems that the tork alone on this
>> 1/2 way-to-pitch, pitch raised piano feels MUCH higher than it did
>> before (and more than "normal") and I chalk that up to the higher
>> tension I have just introduced.
>>
>> I am a jerk tuner.
>>
>> (Stop laughing  :)
>>
>> I would be VERY interested in viewing the number of passes you folks
>> do to bring a  piano up to pitch and whether or not you've
>> experienced this-especially on ones that aren't so old.
>>
>> Hope this post reads OK- and I look forward to your responses!
>>
>> :)
>> Michelle
>>
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