Laurence-
My experience is that people vary greatly in the ways they perceive temperament and piano sound. Some are highly sensitive to changes of temperament and octave size, others are not so sensitive. Either may be very musical or not.
Tuners can be very opinionated, and tend to report that people agree with their particular ideologies.
The historical record is mostly vague enough to be at least tweaked in the direction of ones prejudices.
So my concern is not to have an authoritative answer, but to listen carefully to many performers' opinions and to try to respond sensitively to my customers.
That's why I'm asking: How do you like your piano tuned? Do you have a fixed temperament you prefer, or do you like variety? Do you hear much difference, or is it all pretty good?
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Laurence Libin
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:08 PM
Subject: [CAUT] temperament
Responding to Ed, organs can be more revealing of temperament because they can sustain tones indefinitely, giving listeners time to hear beats, but mixture and mutation stops confuse the aural picture (may I say that?). Since many organs were tuned in meantone well into the 19th century, it would be interesting to investigate whether some organ transcriptions were transposed to avoid wolfs (wolves?) in certain tonalities. Possibly temperament matters least on clavichords because their pitch fluctuates somewhat with touch/loudness (hence their ability to produce vibrato), and often one pair of strings serves two or more pitches--but clavs are designed to accommodate multiple fretting in particular temperaments. Harpsichord temperament perhaps matters more than the modern piano's because so much h'chord repertoire, at least through Rameau, depends on unequal tempering for affect [sic]. How far this sensitivity to key color extended -- Mozart? Beethoven? -- is anyone's guess. But guesses aren't data.
Laurence
On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:33 AM, Ed Sutton wrote:
Laury-
In my experience, the range of perception varies greatly from person to person, and depends on repertoire and instrument as well.
The standard answer is that temperament doesn't matter much, but unisons and octaves matter a lot. This, of course, is the rule of thumb for concert tuning under time pressure.
Generalizations aren't very revealing, but individual responses can give us a sense of what we should be prepared to facilitate.
Therefore, why don't you tell us about yourself, and your perceptions of temperament on piano, organ and harpsichord?
Ed Sutton
----- Original Message -----
From: Laurence Libin
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!??
It would be interesting to compile and compare saved versions of pleasing temperaments since this would indicate the range of today's acceptable variation from true equal temperament. I wonder whether experienced listeners tolerate wider variation in pianos than in pipe organs.
Laurence
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Henry Nicolaides
To: College and University Technicians
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!??
OK! I enjoy aural tuning, too. Especially on pianos that lend themselves to this process and have the resultant outcome. Pleasing interplay of intervals, as you described. But, due to time constraints and the previously mentioned stress reduction reasons, I do not enjoy setting temperaments, stretching octaves, tweaking and etc on the average home furniture called a piano. Nor do I enjoy the aural process on practice room verticals and some small grands. Just as technology has allowed the cardiologist to gain more usable information with "gadgets" I am sure he/she enjoys listening to the heart with the traditional and old fashioned stethoscope. Aural tuning only, is a luxury that I simply can not afford. Yes, I can do it and enjoy the process. ETD's can get one so close that one a concert tuning one can "tweak" if need be...then sit back a listen to the interplay. Five or so years ago I experienced listening and comparing my aural tuning and then and ETD (Verituner) on an older Kimball grand that I service two to three times a year. In about half the time with the ETD I had a tuning that, I have to admit, was every bit as pleasing (maybe not quite the same character) as my aural tuning. Now, the tuning is saved and since I tune this piano fairly frequently I am quite happy to use the ETD and be on my merry way to the next piano.
BTW, I use digital photography. I got out of the darkroom a long time ago, although I still enjoy processing my own film and making prints on real photographic paper.
Happy tuning!
Henry Nicolaides
Southern Illinois University
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To: caut at ptg.org
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:18:01 -0400
From: tnrwim at aol.com
Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!??
I very muchenjoy setting a temperament, then tweaking it to make it sound the verybest I can. I like your wording, "interplay of intervals." I liketuning octaves and unisons and the checks used in octave tuning. I likewhat the piano sounds like when I'm finished. Susan and Ed
This is where I think you two might have the wrong impression of what an ETD can do for you. First of all, as has been cited, for a pitch raise, these things are invaluable. Using the the machine leaves the piano almost exactly on pitch, (if you do it right). On a regular tuning, using an ETD puts 99% of the piano right where it should be. What is left, is exactly what you like to do. You can interplay with all the intervals, and I would go out on a limb and say that it actually allow you to be an even better tuning than you are now. I use my SAT to tune the whole piano. Then I turn it off, and tune the whole piano again, aurally. I tweak every interval. When I get done, I really like the piano when I'm finished, because I've put my personal touch to it.
As far as the blinking lights are concerned, well, yes, Susan, I guess they can be a little bit of a distraction. But, as you said, to each his/her own.
Wim
-----Original Message-----
From: Elwood Doss <edoss at utm.edu>
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Sun, Apr 11, 2010 5:50 pm
Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!??
Hi Susan,I'm with you all the way. It amazes me how many technicians who use theETDs try to convince us aural tuners how wonderful they are. I tuneaurally because I want to. Not because I'm afraid of technology, Wim.Its because I am enthralled with being able to begin with one pitch andtune the whole piano just using my ears and my intellect. I very muchenjoy setting a temperament, then tweaking it to make it sound the verybest I can. I like your wording, "interplay of intervals." I liketuning octaves and unisons and the checks used in octave tuning. I likewhat the piano sounds like when I'm finished. I don't care whether it'sa Steinway D used on a concert stage or a Henry F. Miller spinet that isto be played by a beginning piano student. I put just as much effort intuning one as the other. I like to listen to the finished product andrealize that, starting from a single pitch source, I tuned that.Me...just me. No ETD, just me. If I started tuning at A1 and tuned upthe chromatic scales to C88 using an ETD, then this shear joy wouldbecome work...drudgery...I don't care how fast I could tune it or how"relaxed" I might be at the end of the day. I'm sure there are plentyof piano technicians out there just like us, Susan. May our tribeincrease! Oh, and Wim, am I afraid of technology? Well, let's see, I use aSanderson Accu-Fork to get my A=440 pitch and to check how sharp or flatthe piano is. Keeps me from having to have 3 hands. Nice technology!Joy!ElwoodElwood Doss, Jr., M.Mus.Ed., RPTPiano Technician/Technical DirectorDepartment of Music355 Clement HallThe University of Tennessee at MartinMartin, TN 38238731/881-1852FAX: 731/881-7415HOME: 731/587-5700-----Original Message-----From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf OfSusan KlineSent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 11:59 PMTo: caut at ptg.orgSubject: [SPAM] Re: [CAUT] using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!??Importance: LowTo each his own, Wim.It's true I haven't tried using an ETD myself, but I've watched tuning with one. It didn't look tempting to me.And I hate blinky lights and twitching little readouts. I sometimes even turn off overhead fluorescent lights because they bother me.But mainly, I like the direct contact with the piano, and the interplayof intervals. I just like the sounds.Anyway, enjoy your SAT IV.Susan
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