It's worth considering that subliminal perception isn't negligible. Even if we can't put our finger on a cause, we often respond to tiny stimuli that reach us below the level of consciousness. Cognitive neuroscience demonstrates that nothing's trivial. Laurence ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: <caut at ptg.org> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD > Well, I don't know about 2 or 3 cents, that seems like a lot. But there's > certainly some wiggle room. As several people have pointed out, minor > variations in temperament are probably not picked up by most people. Even > very mild UETs versus ET probably slip by most. Stronger UETs I think can > be heard pretty easily though many pianists unaware of the temperament > issue > might not recognize exactly what they are hearing. That, however, > shouldn't > be confused with the idea that they can't hear the difference. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ed > Sutton > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 5:50 AM > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD > > Let's look at this question from a different viewpoint. We argue about > miniscule measurements of pitch. We also know how quickly pianos wander in > response to temperature and humidity changes, assuming we knew and could > produce perfect tuning to begin with. > So, looking at the situations where the pianist/professor/performer must > pay > > for each tuning, I find that it is extremely rare for a paying customer, > even a customer of high level skill and reputation, to pay for more than 4 > tunings a year on their personal pianos. Most do with less. Some with much > less. One who is a recitalist and much published in piano pedagogy circles > who says "My piano is amazingly stable, hardly ever needs tuning." His > wife > winces when he says it. > What does this say about pitch, tuning and temperament in the real world, > not to mention octave stretching (or shrinking, as the humidity may be)? > Search the list for complaints about world-class artists who practice on > out-of-tune instruments until 15 minutes before curtain. > There are many different ways of hearing sound and music. Many of them do > not require tuning to an accuracy of 2 or 3 cents for every note. When is > enough, enough? Some years ago Dan Levitan calculated and produced (just > once) an optimal temperament on his piano, and concluded he'd rather spend > the time playing music. > Ed Sutton > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Libin" <lelibin at optonline.net> > To: <caut at ptg.org> > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 7:53 AM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD > > >> It's well known that as far back as the Renaissance equal temperament was >> one of many options among which musicians could select depending on taste >> and the demands of the music. It still is, but precise 100-cent semitones >> remain, it seems to me, a theoretical ideal seldom achieved (or maybe >> even > >> desirable) in practice except, perhaps, on electronic instruments. At any >> rate I think it's fair to say that true ET is less prevalent on pianos >> today than many people suppose, and that euphonic results, however >> achieved, matter more than strict adherence to any theoretical model. Do >> we agree? >> Laurence >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> >> To: <caut at ptg.org> >> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:03 PM >> Subject: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD >> >> >> And Brahms certainly wrote in a lot of outer keys. This discussion crops >> up >> periodically and I often think it's justification after the fact. Recent >> research by Michael Kimbel (RPT CTE composer and musicologist) suggests >> very >> strongly that the use of ET was in practice much earlier than those >> arguing >> in favor of UETs based on historical precedent would probably find useful >> for their position. Arguments for UETs seem often based on a few >> reputable >> pianists who for personal reasons find it preferable. Certainly nothing >> wrong with that. Yet there are many pianists who don't find it >> preferable >> but remain somewhat silent on the subject, at least publicly. Arguing >> taste has no chance of a resolution, of course. Arguing historical >> precedent does, possibly, but the research doesn't seem to fall in favor >> of >> those who advocate UETs for that reason. >> >> David Love >> www.davidlovepianos.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Okay, but then it wouldn't have occurred to me that 1880 or thereabouts >> was >> still early in the 19th century. In that case, Brahms surely qualifies >> for >> your survey? Anyway, I've kind of lost the point here; is it that a >> predilection for keys far from C suggests less tolerance for temperaments >> other than ET? >> >> Laurence >> >> >> On Apr 18, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Laurence Libin wrote: >> >> >> Uh, there was a guy called "Beetgarden" or something like that. Unless by >> early you mean folks born early in that century. >> Laurence >> >> Fair enough, I was in a Romantic period mindset, and really thinking >> forward >> into the 19th century from maybe 1815 to 1880 or thereabouts, so it >> didn't >> occur to me to include that minor figure from the archaic past of the >> 18th >> century <G>. Still, if we want to include Ludwig in the survey, his last >> 16 >> sonatas include seven with overall key signatures of three or more sharps >> or >> flats. And three of those 16 are "easy" (sonatinas) so perhaps they >> should >> be omitted from the statistics. So Beethoven is certainly heading into >> the >> remoter keys in his 18th century output for piano. >> Fred >> >> >> (Chopin excepted). >> >> And Schumann, and Schubert and Liszt and Mendelssohn. Are there any other >> truly prominent early 19th century composers for keyboard? (18th century >> is >> an entirely different matter). >> Regards, >> Fred Sturm >> fssturm at unm.edu >> http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/FredSturm >> >> >> >
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