Many thanks Mark. That's very reassuring
Ted
________________________________
From: Mark S Burgett <markb at pianodisc.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 6:01:21 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] WNG hammer removal tool
Hi Ed,
The new WNG hammer removal tool will work for wood shanks also. The
diameter of the tool that contacts the shank is 4.5mm, just slightly
small than the 4.7mm shank. And the hammers do come off with the CA Gel
and very easy with a little heat.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of
caut-request at ptg.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 1:54 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 23, Issue 61
Send CAUT mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of CAUT digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Hammer head removing tool (Ed Sutton)
2. Re: Down Weight Too High With New Hammers (Ed Sutton)
3. Fortepiano locking systems (Dennis Johnson)
4. Re: Down Weight Too High With New Hammers (reggaepass at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:33:31 -0400
From: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com>
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer head removing tool
Message-ID: <91C9D0FFA05741BB8E62D6E8B8B72C2C at EdPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
WNG is planning to produce a tool for carbon shanks.
Perhaps you will need to buy two tools, or perhaps wait to see if the
WNG tool is also good for wood shanks.
WNG has designed a set of regulating tools which I like very much,
egonomically designed so that tool shanks and handles are at comfortable
positions, and beautifully machined. They work well on non-WNG action
parts.
Ed Sutton
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul T Williams
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer head removing tool
How would one remove hammers from WNG shanks with their unforgiving
glue? Will this tool work on the carbon shanks if using more friendly
glue? Or will it crack and destroy the shank?
Best,
Paul
From: "Jeannie Grassi" <jcgrassi at earthlink.net>
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Date: 09/21/2010 01:49 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer head removing tool
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
I think I?ve tried almost everything out there, including some
adaptations. Jurgen Goering of Pianoforte Supply has by far the best
tool for the job. It is pricey, but if it is the only one you buy?..it
will be the only one you ever need. Save money on the others.
Jeannie Grassi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of
Zeno Wood
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 6:22 AM
To: College and University Technicians
Subject: [CAUT] Hammer head removing tool
In the hopes of not buying a tool more than once, does anyone have any
thoughts on the best tool for removing grand hammer heads?
Thanks,
Zeno Wood
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:45:03 -0400
From: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com>
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
Message-ID: <0BCD76B5E94E4C49A462298EBB515B2B at EdPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New HammersI also do this the way
Alan describes. The only difference in my approach is that I use a wide
blade spackle knife to mask the center of the slot while painting hide
glue on the sides of the slot.
Whatever way you do it, this is a critical repair for quality action
work.
Incidentally, if you make a set of light weight go bars, just long
enough to clamp an action to your bench top, you may find many uses for
it, such as quick clamping of the action stack to the keyframe when
leveling keys.
Ed Sutton
----- Original Message -----
From: McCoy, Alan
To: CAUTlist
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
I do this gang style. I made some clamp blocks long enough for each
section. Cut the felt long enough for each section and wide enough for
the slot in the bottom of the wippen. Apply the glue quickly to each
side of the felt and put it on the section of wippens. Put on the clamp
block and use go bars lightly for a few minutes. I don't have pictures
here at work of the clamp blocks, but they are easy to make. They are
just a strip of hardwood maybe 3/4" thick, 1" wide and as long as the
section of wippens with a shallow longitudinal cut-out the length of the
strip so that the light clamping pressure of the go bars is applied only
to the edges of the felt where the glue is. Then when the glue is hard,
cut between the wippens with a felt knife. It is a fast job.
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
From: Fred Sturm <fssturm at unm.edu>
Reply-To: CAUTlist <caut at ptg.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:47:37 -0700
To: CAUTlist <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
I don't clamp - that's why I use hot hide. Apply glue to both ends of
the felt, press in place, do the next. Every few, go back over the last
ones you did and press firmly again. Clamping would be very troublesome.
Fred
On Sep 20, 2010, at 12:30 PM, Zeno Wood wrote:
Fred - What's your method for clamping the new felt?
Thanks,
Zeno Wood
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Fred Sturm <fssturm at unm.edu>
wrote:
On Sep 18, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Paul Milesi, RPT wrote:
If I can't get new repetitions, is it worth trying to bolster
cushions or can they be easily replaced?
I prefer replacement of felt to bolstering. Turn the stack upside
down, saturate the felt with an acetic acid solution (a little wallpaper
remover or alcohol helps it soak right in, and heating the solution a
bit speeds up the process). Pull felt off when it is nice and loose,
replace using hot hide glue. Precut felt to size in a mass production
manner (strip to width, then cut to length; or, if you have strips that
are as wide as the length you need, just slice to width). Use a rotary
cutter on a mat, a straight edge with mild sandpaper glued to one side
to hold it firmly.
Learning this kind of technique is well worth while in the long
run, as it has plenty of applications.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
fssturm at unm.edu
http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/FredSturm
Regards,
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm at unm.edu
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:50:10 -0500
From: Dennis Johnson <johnsond at stolaf.edu>
To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: [CAUT] Fortepiano locking systems
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimme0vOgRtuoMWM58djxsu3r90XB5=O6Z98L-f5 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello-
What sort of systems do you use to lock a nice fortepiano? What we have
been using is a goofy looking combination of straps made by the local
shoe
maker. One piece wraps around the narrow part of the case with 2
straps
extended forward and around the front to underneath where they all join
and
are locked together with a padlock. Actually, this might work better if
it
had been designed with a little extra length, but it is a real pain to
get
all the pieces connected and locked together. We say it almost looks
like a
chastity belt.... and not what we're looking for. If somebody made a
hands-off fallboard lock that was 14" tall I think we would put in
screws
for that.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
cheers,
Dennis Johnson
____
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:48:05 -0400
From: reggaepass at aol.com
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
Message-ID: <8CD27E56CB5D446-C9C-282FD at webmail-stg-m04.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
... or use a deburring wheel.
Alan Eder
-----Original Message-----
From: McCoy, Alan <amccoy at ewu.edu>
To: Ed Sutton <ed440 at mindspring.com>; CAUTlist <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Tue, Sep 21, 2010 9:35 am
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
Or buff them on your buffing wheel with rouge. It will take the edges
off easily and leave a very smooth surface.
Alan
-- Alan McCoy, RPT
Eastern Washington University
amccoy at ewu.edu
From: Ed Sutton <ed440 at mindspring.com>
Reply-To: Ed Sutton <ed440 at mindspring.com>, CAUTlist <caut at ptg.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:20:59 -0700
To: CAUTlist <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
Paul-
Steinways of the era you are working on sometimes have cpastans with a
sharp
ridge on the perimeter. This can dig into the wippen heel felt and add
an
extra moment of drag in the action movement, both down and up.
If you have these sharp edged capstans, I'd recommend replacing them.
Ed Sutton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Milesi, RPT" <paul at pmpiano.com>
To: "PTG CAUT List" <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
> This is an interim report on the thread I started back on August 23rd
> (below).
>
> Thank you to everyone who contributed; truly appreciated. Your
comments
> encouraged me to read and study various materials concerning
touchweight
> and
> action geometry, and my understanding has gone to another level.
>
> I learned at least in a primitive way to perform some touchweight
analysis
> by measuring DW and UW, then calculating Friction and BW. Interestng!
> I've
> analyzed every note of a well-working Bluthner action, and learned a
ton!
>
> Now, back to the Steinway. I am starting to conclude that the problem
is
> stemming from the capstan-to-wippen heel cushion relationship.
(Remember,
> original repetitions 40 yrs old with new H/S/F.) After re-checking
key
> friction, hammer flange pinning, etc., I changed out a couple original
> reps
> for new ones from another job. Here are the results:
>
> Note DW UW F BW
> F69-orig rep 69 33 36 102
> F69-new rep 57 33 24 90
>
> Careful study and comparison of the repetitions shows that the new
> cushions
> are about 1mm proximal compared to the originals. Also, the originals
are
> rather indented, since this piano had 40 years of gospel music played
on
> it
> in our Chapel. When depressing keys very slowly, I had noticed I was
> feeling a resistance, then a sense of giving-way and easier movement.
> This
> varies from key-to-key. I now believe it's the variations in
condition of
> heel cushions. Am I on to something here?
>
> I have asked our chairman again for the dollars to buy a new set of
reps
> (these are teflon-bushed anyway, and I'd love to get rid of them --
flange
> pinning is very loose on some -- and the original hammer flanges were
> incredibly loose). BUT...if he says no, how can I recondition these
> heels?
> Should I undertake to replace felt and underfelt? Never done this
before.
> Not sure that bolstering will yield a consistent, recital-level
result?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
> --
> Paul Milesi, RPT
> Staff Piano Technician
> Howard University Department of Music
> Washington, DC
>
>
>> From: "Paul Milesi, RPT" <paul at pmpiano.com>
>> Reply-To: <caut at ptg.org>
>> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:53:30 -0400
>> To: PTG CAUT List <caut at ptg.org>
>> Conversation: Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
>> Subject: [CAUT] Down Weight Too High With New Hammers
>>
>> I installed pre-hung S&S hammers on the '70 S&S D, forced to use
original
>> repetitions because of budget considerations. With the regulation
only
>> "roughed in," the down weight feels too high to me when I play it.
Now I
>> find it's measuring in the range of 55-60 grams throughout. I have
>> addressed friction in every area except removing and cleaning
>> repetitions.
>> I can't believe rep spring grooves, etc., would make that much of a
>> difference; they don't seem that bad.
>>
>> The new hammers are hung on NY improved shanks with knuckle further
out.
>>
>> I compared hammer/shank/flange #44 from the original and new sets,
and
>> there
>> is, if I remember correctly, about a 2 gram difference. But the
>> originals
>> are so beat, I don't know if it's a very meaningful comparison.
>>
>> Would mixing original 1970 reps with NYI H/S/F cause the geometry to
be
>> that
>> different? I was told by David Kirkland that I could "make it work,"
>> although using older repetitions wasn't first choice. I know the
hammer
>> weight changed in 1984, but understood that using NYI shanks and
flanges
>> would be all the compensation that was needed for the additional
weight.
>>
>> By the way, the upweight measures roughly 28-30g. Also a little
high,
>> no?
>> And it seems to me there's a lot of lead in the keys, but I'm
definitely
>> no
>> expert. Doesn't this imply a somewhat too-heavy hammer?
>>
>> I don't mean to be taking any shortcuts here, but there are time
>> constraints
>> and a balance/compromise that must be struck with all the other
>> instruments
>> I'm responsible for. This one is starting to drown me. Just
wondering
>> if
>> this touchweight issue is common when putting new hammers on a
Steinway D
>> from this period, and if there is a typical or common remedy or
approach
>> to
>> solving the problem.
>>
>> This is only my 3rd set of hammers, and my first set completely on my
>> own.
>> I'm thinking of attending the PTG hammer hanging class with Mike
Carraher
>> and Keith Bowman in October. Any thoughts on whether I'll learn
skills
>> in
>> addition to hanging (determining bore angle, etc. and boring hammers,
I
>> assume?) that might help me fix this? Will they address how to
arrive at
>> final touch weight? I want to learn! Guess I should contact Mike or
>> Keith.
>>
>> OK, now I've exposed my near-total ignorance in this area and am
>> embarrassed. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>> --
>> Paul Milesi, RPT
>> Staff Piano Technician
>> Howard University Department of Music
>> Washington, DC
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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