What if Paul had just asked Richard about this in the first place? Er, we wouldn't have has this lovely chat? anon. -----Original Message----- From: Ed Sutton <ed440 at mindspring.com> To: caut <caut at ptg.org> Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:15 am Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers And Richard knew the story all along. What if Paul had just asked Richard about this in the first place? Ed S. Grump ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: <caut at ptg.org> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers > Well, we've really come full circle on this now, haven't we. So after > dissecting the reports of the poor quality NY hammers, much ado about > sticking with NY hammers and the risks of going "after market" blah blah > blah, it turns out that the original decision on the piano for what > produced > the best tone was a Hamburg Renner hammer and, ironically, the > dissatisfaction that now presents itself has come on the heels of putting > the manufacturer's hammers back on there. From the bulk of the input the > only problem that exists is likely the handling voicing procedure. We've > got people jumping back and forth on both sides of the arguments as seems > to > be appropriate at the time. Am I the only one that sees the ridiculous > humor > and irony in all this? > > The lesson learned (other than the pertinent posts on making sure that you > fully explore the potential of a hammer with a careful set up before you > bag > it) should be that the decision about what hammer to choose on any given > piano, especially where expectations are high, should always take into > consideration that different types of hammers will be more or less > suitable > on different bellies even on two pianos of the same make, model and year. > Even though a hammer "should" produce the hoped for result if handled and > set up properly, it doesn't always for reasons, perhaps, unknown, and we > would do well to keep in the back of our minds that the search for the > proper hammer shouldn't be done out of habit or because we feel pressure > from some particular entity. It's our call and we ultimately bear the > responsibility for the outcome. > > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of > Horace > Greeley > Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 2:21 PM > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers > > > Hi, Richard, > > AH...da haben wir den Dreck...you said the magic words...Dean > Shank/Forshey Piano Company...alles kommt klar. > > Putting Hamburg hammers on troublesome NY pianos has been around for > a very long time...they often work exceptionally well; especially if > the instrument has trouble developing tone. > > It used to be that they had to be ordered by S/N, and were supposedly > otherwise unavailable...so, the story hangs together from that > standpoint. I'm not at all surprised that it took a while to get them. > > Best. > > Horace > > > At 01:37 PM 2/12/2011, you wrote: >>The Steinway D at the University of Nebraska: This is one of three >>D's at UNL. It was built in 1992; it was purchased by UNL in the >>fall of 1999 having been in Aspen that summer for the music >>festival. The rumor was that UNL "stole" the piano because it was a >>C&A instrument that somehow got diverted to Forche Music in >>Houston. Probably Steinway wanted to sell it and Forche got the >>piano. While in Houston Dean Shank (piano technician/pedagogy >>instructor at Rice) "found" the piano and called one of our profs >>here to tell him that this wonderful instrument was for sale. The >>prof flew down to Houston to take a listen. He loved it. Our other >>piano faculty guy followed and he loved the instrument. Money >>appeared from somewhere. The sale was made. I didn't see the >>instrument until it arrived on campus. (That was before I started >>working at the Aspen festival) The piano did have a lovely >>sound. But the hammers were pretty well shot. I told the piano >>faculty that we wouldn't get more than a couple years out of them, >>so as part of the sale, Forche agreed to provide a new set of >>hammers when I determined that it was necessary. >> >>I also discovered that the hammers were Hamburg hammers, although >>this was a NY D. I never determined whether the rumored story that >>we "stole" the piano from NY was true, although when the piano was >>inaugurated, the rumor got into the newspaper. Such a tale always >>adds to the perceived tone, I'm sure. But what actually happened >>between the pianos birth and it's arrival in Houston is still >>shrouded in mystery. I suppose I should have investigated its >>checkered past assuming that the piano had a checkered past sitting >>in the basement of Steinway Hall. >> >>I'm not sure of the year that I decided to replace the hammers, but >>it was probably around 2003/2004. I had to badger Forche for the >>hammers, but I finally got them. It was my understanding that at >>that time Renner-made, Hamburg hammers that came directly from the >>Hamburg factory were difficult to get--impossible through the >>Steinway NY parts department. I don't know whether this was true >>then. At one point I heard that the "Hamburg" hammers you got >>through NY weren't really the same as the "real" Hamburg hammers >>that Renner made for the Hamburg factory. (How do these rumors get >>started anyway???) At any rate, Forche supposedly got me the >>genuine article and they looked good, same color underfelt, nice >>shape, harder that NY hammers. If they weren't the genuine article, >>they were pretty good hammers and I went with them because I didn't >>want to alter the basic tone of that piano. >> >>The hammer replacement caused me much anxiety. I was planning on >>custom boring the hammers. I found that the plate was fairly >>radically canted. The bass end was almost 1/4" too high and I >>didn't have enough hammer molding to make up the difference. The >>killer octave strings were nearly perfect. Number 88 was going to >>have to be short. What to do. I almost rejected the set in order >>to get non-Steinway hammers with extra long moldings. When I >>checked the old set, I discovered that they were probably not custom >>bored, and were hung like any factory set, even if the bore lengths >>weren't even close in the bass and high treble. Again, what to >>do. My final decision? If the faculty loved the old hammers, then >>I'm just going to duplicate what was there and hope for the >>best. It was the right decision. The faculty loved the new >>hammers, and life went on. >> >>I'm not sure why Paul decided to go with the NY hammers. I thought >>I had told him the history of things. Probably a Hamburg D set >>would have worked better. Maybe that's why the piano had them when >>the piano came to Lincoln. That's the saga. >> >>Richard West, UNL Emeritus >> >>I done my time and done got out. >> >> >> >> >> >>On Feb 12, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Paul T Williams wrote: >> >>>Good suggestion, Brent. >>> >>>Actually, if I remember the story Richard West told me about this >>>piano, is that it was originally from Texas, but I might have this >>>just right. Richard, are you out there? >>> >>>I'll check those issue Monday morning. I would do it right now, but >>>"double reed" day is going on in there.... >>> >>>Of course, my can of worms will get much larger if this is a >>>problem as well! >>> >>>Thanks >>>Paul >>> >>> >>> >>>From: Brent Fischer >>><<mailto:brent.fischer at yahoo.com>brent.fischer at yahoo.com> >>>To: <mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org >>>Date: 02/12/2011 10:13 AM >>>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Hi, >>> >>> You should read Overs comments on plates on his website. Also, >>> if this was >>>built during the Wickham / Kelly transition you might have bass >>>spec issues as >>>well as v-bar problems but it could be more symptomatic of bridge roll or >>>loss of crown. There isn't much wiggle room over the years for the health >>>of a force-crowned board and I witnessed a few Steinways in Texas that >>>came out of the box with reversed crown, so why don't you measure it as >>>well as the front to back bridge bearing so the discussion has a >>>baseline. >>>Brent >>> >>>--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Paul T Williams >>><<mailto:pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu>pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote: >>> >>> >>>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers >>>To: <mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org >>>Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 2:04 PM >>> >>>On my exit for today, Brent, >>> >>>This is a problem with this piano. >>> >>>It was supposidly a C&A piano from Texas (Ask Richard West on the >>>history of this piano). It was chosen by the piano faculty and >>>they loved it. It has a strange history on why its' here, btw. >>> >>>Richard told me the plate was a bit misconfigured and the plate in >>>the bass is a bit too high. This is indeed what I found when >>>regulating the action. I have to be careful when putting the >>>action in and out to watch for the bass hammers as they're a bit too >>>high. >>> >>>New Question: How much affect is this on voicing and tone? Or just >>>action problems, that I've overcome???? >>> >>>More best. >>> >>>Now I'm getting really thirsty for that pint!! >>> >>>Paul >>> >>> >>> >>>From: Brent Fischer >>><<mailto:brent.fischer at yahoo.com>brent.fischer at yahoo.com> >>>To: <mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org >>>Date: 02/11/2011 02:56 PM >>>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Hi Kevin, >>> >>> It's impossible to extrapolate the root cause of Mr. William's hammer >>>problem without a structural analysis. Must remember that these >>>forced-crowned boards don't last more than fifteen years for C at A >>>applications. Ten millimeters of crown out of the piano, five at clamping >>>pressure, and 2.5 strung up. I'd wonder if it was crowned in July >>>or December? >>>The factory isn't exactly tight and it matters. What about the >>>plate? Read what >>>Overs has to say about sand cast specifications. As far as Hamburg >>>hammers, you will fight serious weight issues in the bass, although NY >>>gets it really close now, Hamburg doesn't screw up geometry ever, as far >>>as I know, and they're gonna be heavier. In addition, their bass strings >>>have different specs than NY, the ribs are crowned, and their treble > hammers >>>have a serious lack of under-felt but seem to sound pretty good >>>with that board. >>>Solution, if it isn't structural just get another NY set and stay with NY >>>so your reputation can never be second guessed by a Steinway >>>processed artist. >>> >>>Brent >>> >>>--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Fortenberry, Kevin >>><<mailto:kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu>kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu> wrote: >>> >>>From: Fortenberry, Kevin >>><<mailto:kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu>kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu> >>>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers >>>To: "<mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org" > <<mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org> >>>Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:04 AM >>> >>>Paul, not only do I feel your pain, but the timing of this >>>discussion is rather good. I am faced with this very decision on >>>several pianos. I am, like you, interested in experimenting with >>>the NY hammers, but we are facing budget cuts/time deadlines, etc. >>>I really wish it were possible to just order the Hamburg hammers. I >>>have heard from several sources that they are fabulous! I spoke >>>with another technician friend at a rather large University and he >>>says that it IS possible to order them, but even he admitted it is >>>hard to do. (Anyone have any idea on this? Kent?) He says they are >>>a denser felt than the Renner Blues, but do behave and voice very >>>similarly to the blues. Almost every piano here at Texas Tech >>>(except the few newer pianos we have) has Renner Blues (all 3 of >>>our D-s included) which are great, but of course are fairly high >>>maintenance and just do not seem to last all that long. I love the >>>idea of the Hamburgs since they are "Steinway Hammers" which >>>satisfies those who want to stick with Steinway parts, and those of >>>us with limited time, and very limited $$$ don't have to experiment >>>endless hours with lacquer/lacquer thinner fumes, paint masks that >>>do not allow lacquer fumes to be breathed right into the lungs, >>>etc. etc. Don't get me wrong, I love our Steinways! I am gun-ho >>>about Steinways--probably to a fault, but someone please tell why >>>we cannot just pick up the phone and order Hamberg hammers! In the >>>meantime, I will see what you discover with these hammers, try some >>>experimenting (thanks Fred for all the help with this!), and maybe >>>try those Abel Naturals everyone keeps raving when possible. I >>>have also heard the new Steinway shaped hammers from Renner are >>>challenging to voice--but I have only talked to one rebuilder who >>>had to file deeply to get any real tone. This could be wrong--are >>>these anything like the Hamgergs, also made my Renner?? >>> >>>Best to all, Kevin Fortenberry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: <mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org>caut-bounces at ptg.org >>>[mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of >>><mailto:caut-request at ptg.org>caut-request at ptg.org >>>Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 9:51 AM >>>To: <mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org >>>Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 28, Issue 30 >>> >>>Send CAUT mailing list submissions to >>> <mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org >>> >>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> > <http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut>http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut >>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> <mailto:caut-request at ptg.org>caut-request at ptg.org >>> >>>You can reach the person managing the list at >>> <mailto:caut-owner at ptg.org>caut-owner at ptg.org >>> >>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>than "Re: Contents of CAUT digest..." >>> >>> >>>Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Bum set of NY hammers, I'm afraid (Fred Sturm) >>> 2. Re: Bum set of NY hammers, I'm afraid (David Love) >>> >>> >>>This set is lackluster from the bottom to the top. Perhaps they sent me >>>a >>>non-prelacquered set. I kept the old hammers and shanks, so I might > switch >>>them out, bring the new set to the shop and soak the crap out them with a >>>4:1 mix. I guess I have nothing to lose and education to gain from this. >>> >>>This is my first set of NY Hammers. I've been using Wallys Naturals for >>>years. Maybe I shouldn't have messed around in a new world. I would >>>have >>>put on another set of Abels, but the piano dept head insisted on Steinway >>>hammers as he's a "Steinway Concert Artist". I perhaps shouldn't have > said >>>anything, eh? and just used what I know how to use. >>> >>>What's to expect from Hamburg hammers? Never used those either. >>> >>>Keep em coming. Thanks guys! >>> >>>Paul >>> >>> >>>************************************ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20110212/6e149af0/attachment-0001.htm>
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