Absolutely no disagreement here in theory: concert techs should be able to deal with hot or cold press hammers, the two basic schools of hammer making respond to different techniques. My practical experience following some highly regarded concert techs, was they seemed to apply what they knew to an instrument more often than figuring out what it needed. Sometimes it didn't work out so good. One thing you learn early living on the edge of the Staked Plains is that tornados always blow from southwest to northeast- except when they don't. It's good to have a Plan B and, as the locals refer to it, a Son of B. It really helps to figure out which way the wind is blowing. It's even better if you know what to do before the tornado hits. Down in the bar ditch, Dale Dale Probst, RPT Registered Piano Technician Midwestern State University -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 8:16 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers Yes you are right about that. But concert techs should strive to achieve a range of expertise in different voicing techniques. The basic procedures for the two types (one gets hardened and one gets softened) are somewhat predictable with experience. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com (sent from bb) -----Original Message----- From: "Ward & Probst, Inc" <wardprobst at wardprobst.com> Sender: caut-bounces at ptg.org Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:00:51 To: <caut at ptg.org> Reply-To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers Okay, I can disagree with that 8~} I don't think you should install hammers unless you are familiar with the techniques and procedures that are recommended by the hammer maker/manufacturer and have experience with them on an instrument in a critical situation. It's better practice to install hammers that are new to you in less demanding venues before putting them on a stage instrument, in my opinion. If you are familiar with a wide variety of product and can bring out the best in each, as you seem to be David, then the world's your oyster. Otherwise, there be dragons out there. Respectfully with a smile, DP Dale Probst, RPT Registered Piano Technician Midwestern State University -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 7:34 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with exactly. At least two people who installed hammers on this piano were pleased with the result of the Hamburg hammers. I can't either comment on the potential of this particular instrument with NY hammers but it does happen (and very well might have in this case) that an alternative produced an acceptable even more desirable result for those who played it and for those who worked on it for those years until the hammers were recently changed. That the current quality of the tone is now in question raises suspicions even if they don't rise to the level of certainties. My main point is that hammers should be selected with the specific requirements of the instrument in mind and often there is a better choice and sometimes that is not the manufacturer's current product. I'm not sure how one could disagree with that respectfully or otherwise but I'm certainly open to hearing it. And yes, the discussion did bring out some important points and techniques. I especially liked Fred's illustration of the every other hammer traveling technique. It got me down to the shop on a sunny Saturday afternoon to explore it further. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com (sent from bb) -----Original Message----- From: Horace Greeley <hgreeley at sonic.net> Sender: caut-bounces at ptg.org Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 16:50:47 To: <caut at ptg.org> Reply-To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers Hi, At 04:33 PM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > Dittos David..... and a little irritation with that humor too. Sorry...I respectfully disagree. There is not enough information in evidence to know why a particular set of hammers was chosen over another, or, for that matter, why the procedure was repeated later. The arguments suggested fail on their premise. Given the contemporaneous history of what was going on at the time, it is entirely possible that a specific instrument (or instruments) were set up with Hamburg hammers for no other reason than that someone (probably/possibly a touring artist) ordered them that way. It's important to keep in mind that, often for reasons no more rational than simple marketing, companies, including Steinway, custom make products for specific customers that are effectively designed to obfuscated the realities of what's going on under the hood. I'm not saying that I know that such was the case with this specific instrument. What I am saying is that I know of other situations in which Hamburg hammers have been put on NY pianos, and VS. One of the more popular Hamburgs I've ever worked on had NY hammers on it for nearly a decade; I only changed them out when I knew I was moving on and leaving the client. That piano constantly got comments like: "...I didn't know you could get that kind of versatility of tone and range of dynamics out of a Hamburg...". Well, usually, you can't. The point is that we cannot, based on the facts in evidence, reasonably issue any kind of definitive judgment as to the situation/circumstances leading to why that particular instrument wound up with that particular configuration. Remember that this is the same company that brought you the Moor and Hofmann actions and then disappeared them from site. The question of whether or not the situation could have been handled differently is moot. We are not there. We are not, as it were, walking in his mocassins. And, we are not responsible for the outcome. Besides, it's been a good discussion with a great deal of good information being passed around; and, isn't that more to the point of the list to begin with? Best. Horace >Dale S. Erwin >www.Erwinspiano.com >Custom restoration >Ronsen Piano hammers >Join the Weickert felt Revolution >209-577-8397 >209-985-0990 > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> >To: caut at ptg.org >Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:57 pm >Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers > > >Well, we've really come full circle on this now, haven't we. So after > > >dissecting the reports of the poor quality NY hammers, much ado about > > >sticking with NY hammers and the risks of going "after market" blah >blah > > >blah, it turns out that the original decision on the piano for what >produced > > >the best tone was a Hamburg Renner hammer and, ironically, the > > >dissatisfaction that now presents itself has come on the heels of >putting > > >the manufacturer's hammers back on there. From the bulk of the input >the > > >only problem that exists is likely the handling voicing procedure. >We've > > >got people jumping back and forth on both sides of the arguments as >seems to > > >be appropriate at the time. Am I the only one that sees the ridiculous >humor > > >and irony in all this? > > > > > >The lesson learned (other than the pertinent posts on making sure that >you > > >fully explore the potential of a hammer with a careful set up before >you bag > > >it) should be that the decision about what hammer to choose on any >given > > >piano, especially where expectations are high, should always take into > > >consideration that different types of hammers will be more or less >suitable > > >on different bellies even on two pianos of the same make, model and >year. > > >Even though a hammer "should" produce the hoped for result if handled >and > > >set up properly, it doesn't always for reasons, perhaps, unknown, and >we > > >would do well to keep in the back of our minds that the search for the > > >proper hammer shouldn't be done out of habit or because we feel >pressure > > >from some particular entity. It's our call and we ultimately bear the > > >responsibility for the outcome. > > > > > > > > >David Love > > ><http://www.davidlovepianos.com>www.davidlovepianos.com > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: <mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org>caut-bounces at ptg.org >[mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Horace > > >Greeley > > >Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 2:21 PM > > >To: <mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org > > >Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamburg hammers > > > > > > > > >Hi, Richard, > > > > > >AH...da haben wir den Dreck...you said the magic words...Dean > > >Shank/Forshey Piano Company...alles kommt klar. > > > > > >Putting Hamburg hammers on troublesome NY pianos has been around for > > >a very long time...they often work exceptionally well; especially if > > >the instrument has trouble developing tone. > > > > > >It used to be that they had to be ordered by S/N, and were supposedly > > >otherwise unavailable...so, the story hangs together from that > > >standpoint. I'm not at all surprised that it took a while to get them. > > > > > >Best. > > > > > >Horace > > > > > > > > >At 01:37 PM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > > > >The Steinway D at the University of Nebraska: This is one of three > > > >D's at UNL. It was built in 1992; it was purchased by UNL in the > > > >fall of 1999 having been in Aspen that summer for the music > > > >festival. The rumor was that UNL "stole" the piano because it was a > > > >C&A instrument that somehow got diverted to Forche Music in > > > >Houston. Probably Steinway wanted to sell it and Forche got the > > > >piano. While in Houston Dean Shank (piano technician/pedagogy > > > >instructor at Rice) "found" the piano and called one of our profs > > > >here to tell him that this wonderful instrument was for sale. The > > > >prof flew down to Houston to take a listen. He loved it. Our other > > > >piano faculty guy followed and he loved the instrument. Money > > > >appeared from somewhere. The sale was made. I didn't see the > > > >instrument until it arrived on campus. (That was before I started > > > >working at the Aspen festival) The piano did have a lovely > > > >sound. But the hammers were pretty well shot. I told the piano > > > >faculty that we wouldn't get more than a couple years out of them, > > > >so as part of the sale, Forche agreed to provide a new set of > > > >hammers when I determined that it was necessary. > > > > > > > >I also discovered that the hammers were Hamburg hammers, although > > > >this was a NY D. I never determined whether the rumored story that > > > >we "stole" the piano from NY was true, although when the piano was > > > >inaugurated, the rumor got into the newspaper. Such a tale always > > > >adds to the perceived tone, I'm sure. But what actually happened > > > >between the pianos birth and it's arrival in Houston is still > > > >shrouded in mystery. I suppose I should have investigated its > > > >checkered past assuming that the piano had a checkered past sitting > > > >in the basement of Steinway Hall. > > > > > > > >I'm not sure of the year that I decided to replace the hammers, but > > > >it was probably around 2003/2004. I had to badger Forche for the > > > >hammers, but I finally got them. It was my understanding that at > > > >that time Renner-made, Hamburg hammers that came directly from the > > > >Hamburg factory were difficult to get--impossible through the > > > >Steinway NY parts department. I don't know whether this was true > > > >then. At one point I heard that the "Hamburg" hammers you got > > > >through NY weren't really the same as the "real" Hamburg hammers > > > >that Renner made for the Hamburg factory. (How do these rumors get > > > >started anyway???) At any rate, Forche supposedly got me the > > > >genuine article and they looked good, same color underfelt, nice > > > >shape, harder that NY hammers. If they weren't the genuine article, > > > >they were pretty good hammers and I went with them because I didn't > > > >want to alter the basic tone of that piano. > > > > > > > >The hammer replacement caused me much anxiety. I was planning on > > > >custom boring the hammers. I found that the plate was fairly > > > >radically canted. The bass end was almost 1/4" too high and I > > > >didn't have enough hammer molding to make up the difference. The > > > >killer octave strings were nearly perfect. Number 88 was going to > > > >have to be short. What to do. I almost rejected the set in order > > > >to get non-Steinway hammers with extra long moldings. When I > > > >checked the old set, I discovered that they were probably not custom > > > >bored, and were hung like any factory set, even if the bore lengths > > > >weren't even close in the bass and high treble. Again, what to > > > >do. My final decision? If the faculty loved the old hammers, then > > > >I'm just going to duplicate what was there and hope for the > > > >best. It was the right decision. The faculty loved the new > > > >hammers, and life went on. > > > > > > > >I'm not sure why Paul decided to go with the NY hammers. I thought > > > >I had told him the history of things. Probably a Hamburg D set > > > >would have worked better. Maybe that's why the piano had them when > > > >the piano came to Lincoln. That's the saga. > > > > > > > >Richard West, UNL Emeritus > > > > > > > >I done my time and done got out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Feb 12, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Paul T Williams wrote: > > > > > > > >>Good suggestion, Brent. > > > >> > > > >>Actually, if I remember the story Richard West told me about this > > > >>piano, is that it was originally from Texas, but I might have this > > > >>just right. Richard, are you out there? > > > >> > > > >>I'll check those issue Monday morning. I would do it right now, but > > > >>"double reed" day is going on in there.... > > > >> > > > >>Of course, my can of worms will get much larger if this is a > > > >>problem as well! > > > >> > > > >>Thanks > > > >>Paul > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>From: Brent Fischer > > > >><<<mailto:brent.fischer at yahoo.com%3Ebrent.fischer at yahoo.com?>mailt > o:brent.fischer at yahoo.com>brent.fischer at yahoo.com> > > > >>To: > >><<mailto:caut at ptg.org%3Ecaut at ptg.org?>mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.o > >>rg > > > >>Date: 02/12/2011 10:13 AM > > > >>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>Hi, > > > >> > > > >> You should read Overs comments on plates on his website. Also, > > > >> if this was > > > >>built during the Wickham / Kelly transition you might have bass > > > >>spec issues as > > > >>well as v-bar problems but it could be more symptomatic of bridge > >>roll or > > > >>loss of crown. There isn't much wiggle room over the years for the > >>health > > > >>of a force-crowned board and I witnessed a few Steinways in Texas > >>that > > > >>came out of the box with reversed crown, so why don't you measure it > >>as > > > >>well as the front to back bridge bearing so the discussion has a > >>baseline. > > > >>Brent > > > >> > > > >>--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Paul T Williams > > > >><<<mailto:pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu%3Epwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.ed > u?>mailto:pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu>pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu> > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers > > > >>To: > >><<mailto:caut at ptg.org%3Ecaut at ptg.org?>mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.o > >>rg > > > >>Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 2:04 PM > > > >> > > > >>On my exit for today, Brent, > > > >> > > > >>This is a problem with this piano. > > > >> > > > >>It was supposidly a C&A piano from Texas (Ask Richard West on the > > > >>history of this piano). It was chosen by the piano faculty and > > > >>they loved it. It has a strange history on why its' here, btw. > > > >> > > > >>Richard told me the plate was a bit misconfigured and the plate in > > > >>the bass is a bit too high. This is indeed what I found when > > > >>regulating the action. I have to be careful when putting the > > > >>action in and out to watch for the bass hammers as they're a bit too > >>high. > > > >> > > > >>New Question: How much affect is this on voicing and tone? Or just > > > >>action problems, that I've overcome???? > > > >> > > > >>More best. > > > >> > > > >>Now I'm getting really thirsty for that pint!! > > > >> > > > >>Paul > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>From: Brent Fischer > > > >><<<mailto:brent.fischer at yahoo.com%3Ebrent.fischer at yahoo.com?>mailt > o:brent.fischer at yahoo.com>brent.fischer at yahoo.com> > > > >>To: > >><<mailto:caut at ptg.org%3Ecaut at ptg.org?>mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.o > >>rg > > > >>Date: 02/11/2011 02:56 PM > > > >>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>Hi Kevin, > > > >> > > > >> It's impossible to extrapolate the root cause of Mr. William's > >> hammer > > > >>problem without a structural analysis. Must remember that these > > > >>forced-crowned boards don't last more than fifteen years for C at A > > > >>applications. Ten millimeters of crown out of the piano, five at > >>clamping > > > >>pressure, and 2.5 strung up. I'd wonder if it was crowned in July > > > >>or December? > > > >>The factory isn't exactly tight and it matters. What about the > > > >>plate? Read what > > > >>Overs has to say about sand cast specifications. As far as Hamburg > > > >>hammers, you will fight serious weight issues in the bass, although > >>NY > > > >>gets it really close now, Hamburg doesn't screw up geometry ever, as > >>far > > > >>as I know, and they're gonna be heavier. In addition, their bass > >>strings > > > >>have different specs than NY, the ribs are crowned, and their treble > > >hammers > > > >>have a serious lack of under-felt but seem to sound pretty good > > > >>with that board. > > > >>Solution, if it isn't structural just get another NY set and stay > >>with NY > > > >>so your reputation can never be second guessed by a Steinway > > > >>processed artist. > > > >> > > > >>Brent > > > >> > > > >>--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Fortenberry, Kevin > > > >><<<mailto:kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu%3Ekevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu?>m > ailto:kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu>kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>From: Fortenberry, Kevin > > > >><<<mailto:kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu%3Ekevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu?>m > ailto:kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu>kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu> > > > >>Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers > > > >>To: > "<<mailto:caut at ptg.org%3Ecaut at ptg.org%22?>mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg > .org" > > ><<mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org> > > > >>Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:04 AM > > > >> > > > >>Paul, not only do I feel your pain, but the timing of this > > > >>discussion is rather good. I am faced with this very decision on > > > >>several pianos. I am, like you, interested in experimenting with > > > >>the NY hammers, but we are facing budget cuts/time deadlines, etc. > > > >>I really wish it were possible to just order the Hamburg hammers. I > > > >>have heard from several sources that they are fabulous! I spoke > > > >>with another technician friend at a rather large University and he > > > >>says that it IS possible to order them, but even he admitted it is > > > >>hard to do. (Anyone have any idea on this? Kent?) He says they are > > > >>a denser felt than the Renner Blues, but do behave and voice very > > > >>similarly to the blues. Almost every piano here at Texas Tech > > > >>(except the few newer pianos we have) has Renner Blues (all 3 of > > > >>our D-s included) which are great, but of course are fairly high > > > >>maintenance and just do not seem to last all that long. I love the > > > >>idea of the Hamburgs since they are "Steinway Hammers" which > > > >>satisfies those who want to stick with Steinway parts, and those of > > > >>us with limited time, and very limited $$$ don't have to experiment > > > >>endless hours with lacquer/lacquer thinner fumes, paint masks that > > > >>do not allow lacquer fumes to be breathed right into the lungs, > > > >>etc. etc. Don't get me wrong, I love our Steinways! I am gun-ho > > > >>about Steinways--probably to a fault, but someone please tell why > > > >>we cannot just pick up the phone and order Hamberg hammers! In the > > > >>meantime, I will see what you discover with these hammers, try some > > > >>experimenting (thanks Fred for all the help with this!), and maybe > > > >>try those Abel Naturals everyone keeps raving when possible. I > > > >>have also heard the new Steinway shaped hammers from Renner are > > > >>challenging to voice--but I have only talked to one rebuilder who > > > >>had to file deeply to get any real tone. This could be wrong--are > > > >>these anything like the Hamgergs, also made my Renner?? > > > >> > > > >>Best to all, Kevin Fortenberry > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>-----Original Message----- > > > >>From: > <<mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org%3Ecaut-bounces at ptg.org?>mailto:caut-boun > ces at ptg.org>caut-bounces at ptg.org > > > > >>[mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of > > > >><<mailto:caut-request at ptg.org%3Ecaut-request at ptg.org?>mailto:caut- > request at ptg.org>caut-request at ptg.org > > > >>Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 9:51 AM > > > >>To: > >><<mailto:caut at ptg.org%3Ecaut at ptg.org?>mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.o > >>rg > > > >>Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 28, Issue 30 > > > >> > > > >>Send CAUT mailing list submissions to > > > >> > >> <<mailto:caut at ptg.org%3Ecaut at ptg.org?>mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg. > >> org > > > >> > > > >>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > >> > > ><<http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut%3Ehttp://ptg.org/mailman/listinf >o/caut>http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut>http://ptg.org/mailman/list >info/caut > > > >>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > >> > <<mailto:caut-request at ptg.org%3Ecaut-request at ptg.org?>mailto:caut-requ > est at ptg.org>caut-request at ptg.org > > > >> > > > >>You can reach the person managing the list at > > > >> > <<mailto:caut-owner at ptg.org%3Ecaut-owner at ptg.org?>mailto:caut-owner at pt > g.org>caut-owner at ptg.org > > > >> > > > >>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > >>than "Re: Contents of CAUT digest..." > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>Today's Topics: > > > >> > > > >> 1. Re: Bum set of NY hammers, I'm afraid (Fred Sturm) > > > >> 2. Re: Bum set of NY hammers, I'm afraid (David Love) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>This set is lackluster from the bottom to the top. Perhaps they > >>sent me a > > > >>non-prelacquered set. I kept the old hammers and shanks, so I might > > >switch > > > >>them out, bring the new set to the shop and soak the crap out them > >>with a > > > >>4:1 mix. I guess I have nothing to lose and education to gain from > >>this. > > > >> > > > >>This is my first set of NY Hammers. I've been using Wallys Naturals > >>for > > > >>years. Maybe I shouldn't have messed around in a new world. I > >>would have > > > >>put on another set of Abels, but the piano dept head insisted on > >>Steinway > > > >>hammers as he's a "Steinway Concert Artist". I perhaps shouldn't > >>have > > >said > > > >>anything, eh? and just used what I know how to use. > > > >> > > > >>What's to expect from Hamburg hammers? Never used those either. > > > >> > > > >>Keep em coming. Thanks guys! > > > >> > > > >>Paul > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>************************************ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >
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