[CAUT] CAUT Digest, Vol 35, Issue 3

Fortenberry, Kevin kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu
Thu Sep 1 13:44:00 MDT 2011


Thanks Dale, and "Prescott Piano". I'm inclined to take the advice of Trix--sure don't want any more headaches!!  Sure interesting to really consider this. I think I will experiment with maybe one of our old practice pianos. We will see.

Where would I be able to look at some Kangaroo leather?  My stepson/daughter-in-law live in New Zealand--wonder if they have Kangaroos there also? Food for thought.

Kevin




-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of caut-request at ptg.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 2:35 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 35, Issue 3

Send CAUT mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Leather Bushings (prescottpiano at juno.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:28:04 -0700
From: "prescottpiano at juno.com"<prescottpiano at juno.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Leather Bushings
Message-ID: <984d163a-f66d-4552-ae41-aed12568ac8d at blur>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="Flowed";
        DelSp="Yes"

I can't find in the archives but it seems to me I once heard of using
kangaroo leather as it was of uniform thickness.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

-----Original message-----
From: Dale Erwin <erwinspiano at aol.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Thu, Sep 1, 2011 18:27:23 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Leather Bushings

Kevein
  For what its worth we have also been frustrated with the short life of
cloth bushings in high use situations.  I do have a set installed on a high
use D at a local college.and they have held up with out incident ie squeaks
etc. I set them up at as close to zero side play as I could get away with
and it took a year for them to play in so that there was nominal clearance.
In other words a perfect fit. Untill they got to this point though there was
a comment about the friction when aggressive playing  forced the key against
the side of the pin.
  They are more problematic to install. Trix is the bushing queen and she
says its a headache.  The issue is getting the right thickness of leather so
fit come out just right. It is possible to shrink and iron felt but nos so
with leather.
 The upside is they hold up. Its important to put the slick or the smooth
side against the pin.  I can't recall which....at this moment.... which it
is.





Dale S. Erwin
www.Erwinspiano.com
209-577-8397
209-985-0990
 Ronsen hammers--R&D
"-pre-hung hammers"
Sitka- Soundboard- Supplies
Panels & Ribstock








-----Original Message-----
From: Fortenberry, Kevin <kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu>
To: caut <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Thu, Sep 1, 2011 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Leather Bushings


Roger and all, I have been enjoying this discussion about using leather
bushings. I am very interested in trying this on a few piano faculty pianos
in
hopes that they will last LONGER. What I am getting from you so far is,
install
only on balance rail as cloth on front is more quiet, and get leather from
Forte
Piano in Canada since he has excellent quality in several different
thicknesses.
I would assume hide glue. It also sounds like have a few different sizes on
hand
would be good as the fit would be fairly critical. What about the final
fitting/sizing or if some come out inconsistent?  Do the heated cauls help
with
this?  How about alchohol/water?

Thanks for the help, Kevin Fortenberry, Texas Tech University




-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of
caut-request at ptg.org
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 11:31 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 34, Issue 7

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        caut at ptg.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: B????sendorfer question (Roger Jolly)
   2. Re: B????sendorfer question (Alan Eder)
   3. Read your message before it gets deleted! (Badoo)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:31:32 -0600
From: Roger Jolly <roger.j at sasktel.net>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20110829141325.022cc918 at mail.sasktel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"


Hi Alan,
             I thought those pins were 0.135"? again I am going from my
faded memory, in which case use 0.137 cauls.  Use hide hot glue, don't push
the caul all the way in and use a razor blade to trim flush with the top of
the button.  Once trimmed push the caul down the extra 2 or 3 mm.
You are correct about the glue and leather, very little wicking.
When I have used the tan side to the pin, I've found it prone to squeaks.

The leather last at least 5 times longer.  I still bush the front rail with
cloth, it is quieter.  Because there is less key roll with leather BR
bushings the FR seems to also last longer.

We have converted most of our instruments to leather and are very pleased
with the results. Level and dip appears more stable. We have not had to re
bush any of the leather converts, and a number of these pianos were done 5
years ago.

Expect a spirited discussion on tan in and tan out. The above is just my
experience. Probably there is no right answer. I use a small artist brush
to coat the nap in Teflon powder. It seems to stay put long enough for the
nap to lay down.

The leather/maple button seems to be more stable with humidity swings.

Regards Roger


At 01:59 PM 8/29/2011, you wrote:
>Hi Roger,
>
>Thanks for the input on key bushing with leather. ? Nap towards the pin,
>eh? ? Not what I would have guessed (but I have zero experience bushing
>keys with leather at the moment, so what do I know?). ? Do you use hot
>animal hide glue? ? Any special considerations (vs. bushing w/ cloth)??
>If my memory serves me correctly I use 1.1mm.
>
>... which would be about .043". ? I suppose the appropriate thickness of
>leather depends, as with cloth, on the difference between the size of the
>mortise and the size of the key pins (less whatever needs to be figured in
>for the glue line--and I imagine that leather will be less absorbent of
>glue than cloth, particularly if the glue is applied to the tanned side of
>the leather).
>
>Have you found leather to last substantially longer than cloth? ? And as
>it starts to wear, is there a way to resuscitate it (like there is with
cloth)?
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Alan Eder
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger Jolly <roger.j at sasktel.net>
>To: caut <caut at ptg.org>
>Sent: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 8:30 am
>Subject: Re: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question
>
>
>Hi Alan,
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  Get your leather from Jurgen at Piano Forte he
>sells it in several thicknesses, 0.1mm increments. I use it with the nap
>towards the pins, dusted with micro fine Teflon powder. No squeaky
>leather.?  If my memory serves me correctly I use 1.1mm.
>
>Regards Roger
>
>
>
>At 12:00 PM 8/29/2011, you wrote:
>>Hi Ted,
>>I will be rebushing with leather.
>>
>>I am about to rebush a set of keys with leather, a first-time experience
>>for me. ?? Any tips you would be willing to share?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Alan Eder
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Edward Sambell <<mailto:esambell at yahoo.com>esambell at yahoo.com>
>>To: caut <<mailto:caut at ptg.org>caut at ptg.org>
>>Sent: Sat, Aug 27, 2011 9:42 am
>>Subject: Re: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question
>>
>>Stan,
>>
>>I have worked on many Bosendorfers and the keypin diameters were .135".
>>In fact I am doing one now, and it too has .135" on both rails. I will be
>>rebushing with leather. The keys are made by Herrberger Brooks (UK) but
>>this size seems to be common with European pianos.
>>
>>Regards, Ted Sambell
>>
>>From: Stan Kroeker <smkroeker at shaw.ca>
>>To: caut at ptg.org
>>Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 1:26:03 PM
>>Subject: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question
>>Hello all,
>>Have just received a set of B????sendorfer keys from a colleague for
>>rebushing and am worried that the keypin diameters may not have been
>>measured accurately.???  Is anyone able to share these specs?
>>Best regards from the sun-baked Canadian prairie!
>>Stan Kroeker, RPT
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:40:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan Eder <reggaepass at aol.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question
Message-ID: <8CE34AB63E831D2-146C-3F3BF at Webmail-m118.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Roger,


Thanks so much for your detailed response.  Lots of very useful information.



Mucho appreciado!


Alan


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Jolly <roger.j at sasktel.net>
To: caut <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 9:46 am
Subject: Re: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question



Hi Alan,
            Ithought those pins were 0.135"? again I am going from my
fadedmemory, in which case use 0.137 cauls.  Use hide hot glue, don'tpush
the
caul all the way in and use a razor blade to trim flush with thetop of the
button.  Once trimmed push the caul down the extra 2 or 3mm.
You are correct about the glue and leather, very little wicking.
When I have used the tan side to the pin, I've found it prone tosqueaks.

The leather last at least 5 times longer.  I still bush the frontrail with
cloth, it is quieter.  Because there is less key roll withleather BR
bushings
the FR seems to also last longer.

We have converted most of our instruments to leather and are very
pleasedwith
the results. Level and dip appears more stable. We have not had tore bush
any of
the leather converts, and a number of these pianos weredone 5 years ago.

Expect a spirited discussion on tan in and tan out. The above is just
myexperience. Probably there is no right answer. I use a small artist
brushto
coat the nap in Teflon powder. It seems to stay put long enough forthe nap
to
lay down.

The leather/maple button seems to be more stable with humidityswings.

Regards Roger


At 01:59 PM 8/29/2011, you wrote:

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the input on key bushing with leather. ? Nap towards the pin,eh?
?
Not what I would have guessed (but I have zero experience bushingkeys with
leather at the moment, so what do I know?). ? Do you use hotanimal hide
glue? ?
Any special considerations (vs. bushing w/ cloth)??

If my memory serves me correctly I use 1.1mm.


... which would be about .043". ? I suppose the appropriatethickness of
leather
depends, as with cloth, on the difference betweenthe size of the mortise and
the
size of the key pins (less whatever needsto be figured in for the glue
line--and
I imagine that leather will beless absorbent of glue than cloth,
particularly if
the glue is applied tothe tanned side of the leather).

Have you found leather to last substantially longer than cloth? ? And asit
starts to wear, is there a way to resuscitate it (like there is withcloth)?

Many thanks,

Alan Eder



-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Jolly <roger.j at sasktel.net>
To: caut <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 8:30 am
Subject: Re: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question


Hi Alan,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  Get your leather from Jurgen at PianoForte he
sells
it in several thicknesses, 0.1mm increments. I use it withthe nap towards
the
pins, dusted with micro fine Teflon powder. Nosqueaky leather.?  If my
memory
serves me correctly I use1.1mm.

Regards Roger



At 12:00 PM 8/29/2011, you wrote:

Hi Ted,
I will be rebushing with leather.


I am about to rebush a set of keys with leather, a first-timeexperience for
me.
?? Any tips you would be willing to share?

Thanks,

Alan Eder



-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Sambell<esambell at yahoo.com>
To: caut <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Sat, Aug 27, 2011 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question

Stan,

I have worked on many Bosendorfers and the keypin diameters were.135". In
fact I
am doing one now, and it too has .135" on bothrails. I will be rebushing
with
leather. The keys are made by HerrbergerBrooks (UK) but this size seems to
be
common with Europeanpianos.

Regards, Ted Sambell


From: Stan Kroeker<smkroeker at shaw.ca>
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 1:26:03 PM
Subject: [CAUT] B????sendorfer question
Hello all,

Have just received a set of B????sendorfer keys from a colleague
forrebushing
and am worried that the keypin diameters may not have beenmeasured
accurately.???  Is anyone able to share these specs?

Best regards from the sun-baked Canadian prairie!

Stan Kroeker, RPT



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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 04:23:55 +0000
From: Badoo <noreply at badoo.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: [CAUT] Read your message before it gets deleted!
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