Hi Israel I agree about embracing the tonalitys of different instruments for different occasins. Kinda like Baskin and Robins 37 different flavors Viva la differance. I,m not fond of the all Steinway school marketing hype for that reason and it denies students of sampling other wonderful flavors. There are many many talented concert level techs on this list that any artist, student,proffesional should be grateful to be able to enlist them to find that rich tone that their ears are intuitively searching for? Techs that have the capabilities to tweak a Steinway or any other world class instrument. That said if the belly is deficient how much can be done that is truly satisfactory? We know the answer. Brent is correct about the inherent design being sound but its the execution of it as a mass produced item that the details have gotten lost. In many small artisan shops, producing a rock solid belly in these pianos is not only possible but required (frankly, a slam dunk) if we are to maintain a reputation for musical pianos. Fortunately some artist and institutions have figured out where to go for the sound that illudes them from the mass produced but under produced factory piano. When a piano is built or rebuilt, yes completly, from top to bottom with only a few hands on the process, the out come falls under scrutiny of quality control that illudes a factory setting. And when marketing hype prevails all, and that we,ve seen ad nauseum, all that is left for many of the factory built pianos is the emperors new clothes be it Steinway,Yamaha, Bluethner etc. Etc! Dale Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1Israel Stein <custos3 at comcast.net> wrote:Brent, Congratulations on your baseball team's record. And condolences to your clients if they take you seriously as a source of recommendation for piano purchase. Because on most of my remarks regarding piano tone I was quoting a well-respected Steinway employee - Eric Schandall - and not the Steinway Marketing Department, as you seem to be doing. I'll trust my own ears and Eric's judgment over some baseball coach's. I love the sound of a good, well prepared Steinway - and I also love the sweet sound of a nice Bosendorfer for chamber music and solo recitals, or in one's living room. Or the dry, crisp tone of a good Bluthner.for Mozart or Bach. Your "one size fits all" "Steinway uber alles" mentality is simply laughable... The Steinway Artist marketing program is a very nice marketing tool for both Steinway and the performing artists themselves (due to the same public perceptions that you keep parroting from Steinway's promotion materials), and is at this point coasting on past triumphs and many years of producing truly great instruments. I have worked with a fair number of performing artists, and they are just as full of complaints about not being able to find the sort of deep and rich sounding Steinway instruments they have gotten accustomed to in the past - and yes, even some Steinway artists. And in my experience, proper prep has nothing to do with it (today there are far more skilled piano technicians around than 30-40 years ago - yet the chorus of complaints keeps rising - explain that?) Some of those instruments are just dogs, as has always been the case, by the way - except the proportion has lately been shifting more and more to the canine side. So yes, Brent, go ahead and drive your truck over whatever book you wish. The statement you'll be making will be more about your own judgment than about any of the author's. And yes, I know plenty very successful "technicians" to whom I would never refer anyone... Cream always rises to the top only in dairy products. Euphonious Thumpe aka Gordon Large wrote: >The sad thing to me though, is that with them go plenty of truly resonant instruments who, by >no fault of their own, sound generally as bad at this point due to simple wear and tear from >loving use: Stieffs, Conovers, Ivers and Ponds, etc.; pianos that could "blow the doors off" >most modern-day instruments, if properly restored--- because the "general public" does not >know the difference. (While continuing to bow before Steinway, largely because it believes >that it is supposed to.) I couldn't agree with you more. But here is where Steinway (and to a lesser extent Baldwin) marketing is also playing a role. If a piano isn't a well-known brand, its value on the used piano market is often at or below the cost of a full, quality restoration, no matter what its potential might be. When is the last time anyone here tried to sell a fully restored Boston-made Mason & Hamlin - and had to settle for a fraction of the price that an equivalent model Steinway would fetch? At a really poor profit margin (if any)? Happens often enough... At least Mason has a bit of a cult following among some piano professionals - see, not everyone buys the Steinway story... Knabe? Stieff? I'll be happy when people learn to even pronounce those names correctly... It's difficult to sell an unknown brand, or the cost of restoring one - when the marketplace undervalues it largely because of lack of name recognition. Yes, on that level it is a tragedy, and anyone with good English comprehension skills should be able to see as plain as day that in his statement to the Times, Larry Fine happens to be lamenting that phenomenon by describing the market conditions that bring it about. But some people are tone-deaf in more ways than one... Israel Stein > > Today's Topics: > > > > > ??I just knew I shouldn't have clicked on this.........with one game left > my boys are 16-1-2 , ?much like my success in the piano business, but > no one should ever expect to win them all, right? ?As in my life, ?I stress > competitiveness over winning and that's the attitude that builds champions. > > ?? ?I could complain all day long about the travesties I've encountered over > a life-time with Steinway but at the start of the day I want my ears to last > to the end of the day. ?Your crisp and bright pianos are a safety hazard and > every piano from overseas no matter what direction you go, should come with > a warning label for ear protection. ?Bright, crisp, and transparent tone sounds like > a sales pitch as well and in the states we understand that it's code for " extremely thin". > ?? ? Clarification: ?the comment about ?"foreign," relates to the fact that the Hamburg is > not in the same Euro class of ?" crisp, bright, and transparent, " ?instruments. > Never ceases to amaze me that the anti-Steinway, full-professors of knowledge, > still can't explain why the majority of classical artists across the globe insist on > Steinway for their concerto performances. ?Must be the marketing geniuses they? > have employed since the 1890's or they've had a secret Facebook going back to? > that time as well. ?The un-rivaled solidity of tone, with the exception of M&H, > is the same heralded sound that is evident in the smallest of halls ?and at " PPP ". > > ?? ? For fifty percent of the " bad Steinways " ?coming out of NY there is also an? > incompetent individual bending the tuning pins and screwing up the front end > of a critical maintenance curve that few no where to start from. > > ?? ? This time when the next edition of Fine's book comes out I'm gonna drive > over it with my Ford Superduty and shred it like all the vintage American ?pianos > going to the dump are going to be lost in favor for the next digital gizmo. > I'll post our final record for the season but we won the last game against this > team by the ten-run rule and it would just be bragging, ?like my dad use to tell > me, ?" when you win say nothing, when you lose say less ". > > ?? ?Not so sincerely and for the last time, > > ?? ? Brent Fischer > > > ?? ? > > > ________________________________ > From: erwinspiano <erwinspiano at aol.com> > To: caut at ptg.org > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 11:30 PM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] The demise of the American piano industry (William Monroe) > > > Hi Israel > Really good post. Quite a journey you,ve been on. Fwiw Hamburg rims or some have been made of maple acquired from the N.Y factory. In 1996 I was on a tour with Michael mohr at the factory and he pointed to stacks of maple being readied to ship to Hamburg. > > Never the less the two factories produce very different instruments. > Dale > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 > Israel Stein <custos3 at comcast.net> wrote: > Hi, William > > Lest this post be misconstrued, I do > believe - like you - that Steinway still > makes a pretty darn good? - occasionally > great - piano, but improvements in > quality control would be very welcome... > And your well thought out remarks remind > me of something I heard Eric Schandall > say on several occasions, back when - > besides being a Steinway C & A > technician in New York - he was running > the Steinway Academy and doing lots of > presentations on behalf of Steinway all > over the country. One of his points was > that it would be a tremendous loss for > the world's musical culture if every > piano sounded like a Steinway. According > to him, it is precisely the variety of > sonorities of different manufacturers' > pianos that enriches the music world, > and he was proud of working for one of > those manufacturers. He would also make > the point that Europe and North America > have very different ideas of constitutes > the ideal piano sound - and trying to > compare the two in terms of which is > "better" is nonsense. In North America > the richer, deeper darker and fuller > sound - like of a good New York Steinway > (at least what it used to be - many > pianists complain that it is hard to > find these days) - prevails, while in > Europe the ideal is a crisper, brighter, > more transparent tone. The Hamburg > Steinway, by the way (according to Eric) > was built to suit the European taste, so > any claim that the Hamburg Steinway is > an "American" piano is based on > ignorance. The Hamburg rims are made > from local woods - hornbeam - and not > rock maple, which only grows in North > America. And the hammers are the much > denser European style hammers. > > And as far as quality and workmanship is > concerned, I can cite numerous instances > of substandard Steinways - both New York > and Hamburg - from my years of prepping > them, first at the Boston dealership, > then at three different stores of the > San Francisco Bay area dealership. Heck, > in my first year at Boston's Steinert > store, we sent back 6 Steinway grands of > various sizes. The president of the > company had me document some of the > problems photographically - at one point > he got really upset and said something > like "what are they doing - trying to > put me out of business?" Some of the > problems I remember were: horrendous > bridgepin positions (really sloppy - no > side bearing in some cases), downbearing > issues, poor choice of soundboard panels > (really poor grain), horrendous action > geometry - this on a Steinway D!!!? > Harvard University purchased that D - it > really was a nice sounding piano - but > their technician insisted on extensive > modifications to the action (which we > did in the store shop - and billed > Steinway for the time). > > Right around that time, Boston's > Symphony Hall had for a house Steinway a > Hamburg "D" - which was not able to > project over an orchestra. I remember > Daniel Barenboim in a performance of the > two Brahms concerti trying his best to > pull some more sound out of that dog - > with Seji Ozawa really trying to hush > the orchestra as much as possible - and > the piano was still inaudible! Some > artists refused to play on it - Emmanuel > Ax and Alfred Brendel come to mind - and > brought in a Steinway C & A instrument > instead (we had them at the store) > paying for transport and tuning out of > their own funds. Then, in my 3-4 years > at the San Francisco dealership, I came > across numerous B's with dead trebles > (it seemed to be epidemic about 10 years > ago) and there was a horrendous sounding > "M" that sat at the Walnut Creek store > for three years (no amount of voicing > made much difference) before someone - > probably an interior decorator (it was a > "fancy case" model) - bought it... > > Currently at San Francisco State > University we have a Hamburg D with a > dead bass (some knucklehead department > chair ordered it sight unseen and > untried - after all, it's a Hamburg > Steinway, so anything we get has to be > great - right?) According to the records > left by the previous technician, he > struggled for years trying to get more > sound out of that bass. We (there's two > of us working here) replaced the hammers > on it a few years ago, and even had a > Hamburg factory-trained consultant help > with the voicing. Bass is still dead. So > a performer either has to tone down > everything - or bash away at the bass > trying to make it match a "full > throttle" performance, and listen to it > "blow up on a FFF" (yes, I heard it > myself - so here goes another specious > claim, Steinways do "blow up on a FFF"). > > So as William writes, Steinway does make > a possibly great instrument - but it > often takes an awful lot of work to get > it to its full potential. And way too > often, even with lots of work, the > result leaves a lot to be desired... > And, by the way, Larry Fine does not > make his claims on the basis of his own > observations - he gets feedback from a > large number of skilled technicians all > over the US and Canada, who report to > him their observations. And if all the > people who are having apoplexy over what > Larry was quoted on in the Times re-read > his words carefully, they might see that > he was describing the mindset of > potential piano buyers that is > contributing to the destruction of old > pianos - not making a recommendation. > There is no point hiding your heads in > the sand, folks - that is the reality in > the low end of today's piano > marketplace. Those buyers who would be > happy with a cheap, mediocre acoustic > piano would very often be just as happy > with an electronic. The acoustic piano > business is migrating up-market - where > users can actually appreciate the > difference between acoustic and > electronic. So if you want to stay in > business, do whatever it takes to get > yourself into that sector. And > personally, I wouldn't mind seeing all > those old Wurlitzers and Aeolians and > Kimballs and spinets of every ilk go off > the end of a mover's truck - they are > the everlasting shame of the American > piano industry and, according to many, > in a large part responsible for its demise. > > And as far as our original poster's > judgement of piano quality - well, > besides sounding an awful lot like a > sales pitch, it presumes that "bigger is > better". Not every performance is given > in and Avery Fisher sized hall, and in > many musical contexts what is desirable > is the ability to blend into an ensemble > - not to project. Then again, only a > small minority of pianos sold are meant > for performance - and many of those > meant for performance will be used in > intimate surroundings where the "ability > to project" is not really a > consideration (as it isn't in most home > and studio pianos.) So our original > poster seems to be suffering from a bit > of tunnel vision here... I really hope > that his judgement as a baseball coach > is a lot better than his judgement of > pianos - or his team is in for a very > rough season... > > Well, William, nice reading your clear > and well thought out prose again. We all > missed you in Seattle... > > Israel Stein > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/20120803/02af994d/attachment-0001.htm>
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